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Post by thorneel on Mar 21, 2017 11:00:07 GMT
Water won't be a trade good. It is abundant in gas giant moon. I think that methane and nitrogen will be a good trade good since there is a scarcity of them in outer solar system. That's a very strong statement. In the Expanse, one of if not the hardest Scifi show to ever appear on TV, water is a vital trade good. Why are you so sure it isn't? In the show, water in the form of ice is shipped in from those moons to the asteroid belts where mining takes place and 1/3 of people live. Also you said Giant Gas MOON, so you do see they are juicy do you? The Expanse may be one of the strongest-SF show we have, but it does have a few soft sides. Water commerce is one - in the books, the exploited status of the Belters is closer to the XIXe Century colonies: they are voluntarily maintained into economic subservience by Earth- and Mars-based powers and industries, stopping them to develop their own autonomous industry and in general keeping wages and life standard low. In the show, they simplified that to control over water, because developing it concisely enough in those episodes would probably have been too difficult. Also Ceres probably has massive water ice reserves, so it is hard to imagine Earth and Mars strip-mining it entirely to the point that they have to import it. That said, water is indeed very important, but it would probably rarely be moved directly. Instead, it would be a local resource used as a base for many industries. Now, the ice-covered moons would be an asset, as they would have massive quantities of easily accessible water for said industries. (A few others are high-end torchships without radiators, spinning Ceres and Eros without destroying them through centrifugal force, and their stealth ships that clearly don't look like functional hydrogen steamers, though they do work pretty much the same way)
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Post by argonbalt on Mar 21, 2017 15:23:37 GMT
The Expanse may be one of the strongest-SF show we have, but it does have a few soft sides. Water commerce is one - in the books, the exploited status of the Belters is closer to the XIXe Century colonies: they are voluntarily maintained into economic subservience by Earth- and Mars-based powers and industries, stopping them to develop their own autonomous industry and in general keeping wages and life standard low. In the show, they simplified that to control over water, because developing it concisely enough in those episodes would probably have been too difficult. Also Ceres probably has massive water ice reserves, so it is hard to imagine Earth and Mars strip-mining it entirely to the point that they have to import it. That said, water is indeed very important, but it would probably rarely be moved directly. Instead, it would be a local resource used as a base for many industries. Now, the ice-covered moons would be an asset, as they would have massive quantities of easily accessible water for said industries. (A few others are high-end torchships without radiators, spinning Ceres and Eros without destroying them through centrifugal force, and their stealth ships that clearly don't look like functional hydrogen steamers, though they do work pretty much the same way) That and i think the ship designs could have used a bit more polish, it is still better than allot of series but it could have been re worked just a bit more.
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Post by The Astronomer on Mar 21, 2017 15:26:30 GMT
I don't think water is abundant on Luna. May require imports.
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Post by Enderminion on Mar 21, 2017 21:39:05 GMT
I don't think water is abundant on Luna. May require imports. the forum has gone over it before, I think it was like 50 or 200 milion people with ice on the moon. recycling of course
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Post by The Astronomer on Mar 22, 2017 2:10:38 GMT
I don't think water is abundant on Luna. May require imports. the forum has gone over it before, I think it was like 50 or 200 milion people with ice on the moon. recycling of course One word: rockets fuels. May need import.
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Post by Enderminion on Mar 22, 2017 2:46:14 GMT
the H in H20 can be used for rocket propellant, I give you that The Astronomer but I don't think that lunar ice will be used for propellant when their is a massive ocean 384472.282Km away, while it is in a deep gravity well, you don't have the problem of angry people who you tried to take their drinking water from
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Post by The Astronomer on Mar 22, 2017 2:51:05 GMT
the H in H20 can be used for rocket propellant, I give you that The Astronomer but I don't think that lunar ice will be used for propellant when their is a massive ocean 384472.282Km away, while it is in a deep gravity well, you don't have the problem of angry people who you tried to take their drinking water from I can see the future where Earth's ocean water is exhausted lol
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Post by Enderminion on Mar 22, 2017 2:56:11 GMT
the H in H20 can be used for rocket propellant, I give you that The Astronomer but I don't think that lunar ice will be used for propellant when their is a massive ocean 384472.282Km away, while it is in a deep gravity well, you don't have the problem of angry people who you tried to take their drinking water from I can see the future where Earth's ocean water is exhausted lol 1334136Tt (thats teratons) of water in the ocean, where are you going to use 1334136Tt of water (metric ton*1000=kiloton, Kt*1000=megatons, Mt*1000=gigatons, Gt*1000=teratons)
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Post by The Astronomer on Mar 22, 2017 3:03:06 GMT
I can see the future where Earth's ocean water is exhausted lol 1334136Tt (thats teratons) of water in the ocean, where are you going to use 1334136Tt of water (metric ton*1000=kiloton, Kt*1000=megatons, Mt*1000=gigatons, Gt*1000=teratons) Uranus offers 8.681x10 25 kg of gas, ice and rock.
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Post by Enderminion on Mar 22, 2017 3:27:56 GMT
did you really have to use Uranus? I expected better from you. but anyway this is about the moon for some reason and ice reserves on it
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Post by The Astronomer on Mar 22, 2017 3:30:36 GMT
did you really have to use Uranus? I expected better from you. but anyway this is about the moon for some reason and ice reserves on it Don't want to get your hands on Uranus? Divert some comet. There's high percentage of heavy water too.
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Post by Enderminion on Mar 22, 2017 3:34:00 GMT
did you really have to use Uranus? I expected better from you. but anyway this is about the moon for some reason and ice reserves on it Don't want to get your hands on Uranus? Divert some comet. There's high percentage of heavy water too. i don't know what to say to that, other then why are you using heavy water? light water is better for living things and sodium (or lead-bismuth) is better for nuclear things
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Post by The Astronomer on Mar 22, 2017 3:37:28 GMT
Don't want to get your hands on Uranus? Divert some comet. There's high percentage of heavy water too. i don't know what to say to that, other then why are you using heavy water? light water is better for living things and sodium (or lead-bismuth) is better for nuclear things Like I say, rocket fuel. HDO + energy = (HD - Hydrogen Deuteride) - - - - - (O - Oxygen)
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Post by matterbeam on Mar 30, 2017 11:57:41 GMT
There will be a water trade, but not between planets and major bodies. It will be from low-gravity comets to even lower gravity barren rocks to provide the volatiles needed for a mining operation. As such, it will be a very tiny trade.
Rocket propellant does not have to be hydrogen or water. In many cases, the difficulty of storing hydrogen and the fact that the best exhaust velocity is one that matches exhaust velocity (in energy-limited propulsion) means that it is sometimes inferior to denser propellants such as nitrogen or carbon dioxide.
For example, your rocket is designed to lift off from Mars. You need about 4km/s deltaV. Liquid hydrogen will give you 9km/s out of your 3300K nuclear thermal engine, but it is actually inferior than a rocket driven by ammonia (5km/s) or carbon dioxide (3.3km/s) as it will need a less powerful reactor to achieve the same thrust at liftoff, and runs for less long.
If you have extreme levels of power available, such as the Epstein drive's easy Terawatts, then hydrogen is still not a good option. You'll save a lot of tank mass and produce several times more thrust by using propellants such as carbon dioxide or even by vaporizing solid metals. The difference in exhaust velocity leads to a negligible change in the mass fraction.
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