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Post by bigbombr on Jul 13, 2017 22:37:32 GMT
It's an interesting question discussed on some other threads. Due to wobbling/accuracy cap, I find minimally sized drones are quite laser-resistant at 1Mm and can often close inside 500Km even with modest numbers. Widebeam lasers might solve this, but will decrease intensity. Scaling lasers up makes for a bigger target; I'd guess apophys standard single-laser drones are ultimately a better bet than the (admittedly terrifying) cheaper multilaser ships he's got here because they're so much more difficult to target (a near-miss won't hit the adjacent drone). All topics for future experiments! Wouldn't the number of lasers on Apophys' design offset beam wobble?
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Post by apophys on Jul 14, 2017 2:50:24 GMT
It's an interesting question discussed on some other threads. Due to wobbling/accuracy cap, I find minimally sized drones are quite laser-resistant at 1Mm and can often close inside 500Km even with modest numbers. Widebeam lasers might solve this, but will decrease intensity. Scaling lasers up makes for a bigger target; I'd guess apophys standard single-laser drones are ultimately a better bet than the (admittedly terrifying) cheaper multilaser ships he's got here because they're so much more difficult to target (a near-miss won't hit the adjacent drone). All topics for future experiments! Wouldn't the number of lasers on Apophys' design offset beam wobble? If they face one opponent, yes, but if they face a large number of opponents, the AI will set each laser on a different opponent. With very small missiles, the wobble results in a high survival time (as can be seen on my fight vs lennson; missiles were destroyed at ~250 km range). Miniature kinetic drones however have quite fragile weapons, so I don't know how much this applies, but I haven't actually tested. Versus missiles and kinetics at least, laser drones are indeed better than multilaser capitals (smaller individual cross-sections; higher redundancy). Unfortunately the game AI handles laser drones horribly (deleting a winning drone fleet for no apparent reason...), and the 25 drone cap with stock AI makes them beaten by multilaser capitals.
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Post by AdmiralObvious on Jul 19, 2017 17:48:39 GMT
Game keeps crashing when Apophys's missiles detonate properly at Argopeliacos's ship, making the results unattainable... In theory though, apophys should be winning, right? Since i'm 80% sure the missiles kill. At least 10 missiles manage to get into contact range on each run.
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Post by Argopeilacos on Jul 19, 2017 18:12:36 GMT
I have missiles and apophys only flak railguns, which I should be able to dodge easily. Have you mixed us up?
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Post by AdmiralObvious on Jul 19, 2017 18:15:18 GMT
I have missiles and apophys only flak railguns, which I should be able to dodge easily. Have you mixed us up? Probably. I'm double checking right now. I know you have laser drones and a fee KKV units attached to pretty much everything. I could've sworn Appophys has a few flak bombs on his ship though. Edit: I figured it out, after resetting the game as a whole everything works as it should, except for the rare times stuff refused to intercept. The missiles came from nowhere for some reason, and they were lennsons.
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Post by lennson on Jul 19, 2017 18:25:41 GMT
I have missiles and apophys only flak railguns, which I should be able to dodge easily. Have you mixed us up? Probably. I'm double checking right now. I know you have laser drones and a fee KKV units attached to pretty much everything. I could've sworn Appophys has a few flak bombs on his ship though. Edit: I figured it out, after resetting the game as a whole everything works as it should, except for the rare times stuff refused to intercept. The missiles came from nowhere for some reason, and they were lennsons. The danger of unused ordnance.
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Post by Argopeilacos on Jul 19, 2017 18:32:45 GMT
The missiles came from nowhere for some reason, and they were lennsons. That was unexpected .
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Post by AdmiralObvious on Jul 19, 2017 18:34:15 GMT
Regardless of what keeps happening, the game keeps crashing at a semi-decisive result. The second time Argopeilacos managed to get his drones into range, but apophys 's ships pretty much immediately (probably, the game tanked to about 4 FPS) burnt out the lasing optics of the drones, and then managed to burn through to the KKV launchers, making them explode. Game crashed once apophys 's ship decided it didn't like that one KKV, and fired a few thousand flak shells at it (hung would be more accurate). Third run, Argopeilacos sent out 60 KKV missiles, which eventually all got popped by the lasers once they passed the 400 km mark. Two of them collided (probably) and crashed the game. Fourth attempt, somehow every payload got ignored and apophys managed to get his ships to intercept Argopeilacos 's ship. The KKV missiles launched didn't actually turn to engage, and apophys 's ship targeted the rear radiators, cutting a hole through the ship through the crew compartment. Then the game crashed once again. Of course, crashing the game corrupts the replays...
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Post by treptoplax on Jul 19, 2017 19:19:09 GMT
Yeah, about as expected for me. Setting AI to 'aggressive' shorted that initial burst of fire from my drones (probably eliminating a lot of lag), which meant it finished before the FF-HVC completed its turn and it missed completely. I'm happy with the survivability of the drones - half of them got inside 100Km, and a quarter inside 50Km... if I could just convince the AI to open fire a bit later or fire at a steady reduced rate they'd be fantastic. (The railgun variant of those I have in the pipeline is looking better all the time...)
Feeling OK about armor on the carrier, too; not sure it ever helped at all in the final analysis, but it held up as well as could be expected to railgun fire. Maybe I should have set the launcher range on the carrier to 1Mm? Not sure the 50mm guns on the carrier ever accomplished anything (maybe they got the kill on 'Another One', hard to tell).
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Post by apophys on Jul 19, 2017 21:37:01 GMT
AdmiralObvious - If my railguns are causing lag issues to the point that you can't see a decisive result, you can remove them and see whether the entry would win without. Alternately you can try to give me an AI that doesn't ignore range, like Defensive (if you don't manually start combat in an engagement, and just let it start naturally).
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Post by treptoplax on Jul 20, 2017 0:05:18 GMT
In case anybody is interested, my entry is attached... This is not 100% identical, as it's adapted for the current patch, but this is pretty much a straight translation (minor tweaks to reactors and appropriate substitutions for bulk boron). Plenty of other things I'd change now, but that's for later... Really it's all about the tiny gundrones; they're surprisingly robust and if you manage 'ignore range' manually I find they're quite difficult to defend against short of just running away (and they're cheap enough to spam...). treptoplaxPatrolCarrierC-B.txt (12.63 KB)
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Post by AdmiralObvious on Jul 20, 2017 0:12:39 GMT
AdmiralObvious - If my railguns are causing lag issues to the point that you can't see a decisive result, you can remove them and see whether the entry would win without. Alternately you can try to give me an AI that doesn't ignore range, like Defensive (if you don't manually start combat in an engagement, and just let it start naturally). I'm 90% sure you win, mostly due to the fact that you've got two ships, and all other entries only have one. I've run the game about 10 times to be sure, and i'm also pretty sure that the flak coils aren't the problem. I think it's just the game struggling to calculate so much damage at once, it breaks. I imagine in the new patch the "split targeting" for the missiles might change the result, but for now I attribute the win to you. Pretty much the only other close result somewhat close to you losing is that one ship lost one of its reactors once.
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Post by Argopeilacos on Jul 20, 2017 7:27:42 GMT
Well, I guess I am still surprised an MPDT design survived against gundrone spam in earlier matches.
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Post by treptoplax on Jul 20, 2017 11:59:05 GMT
I am still surprised an MPDT design survived against gundrone spam in earlier matches. They never really faced gundrone spam IIRC. OTP and Lennson both damaged one ship with railguns when it engaged them, and I don't think gundrones engaged it at all in any match (only Lennson had any and as it worked out only his missiles ever got an intercept). I'd guess lennson's drones would do the trick and mine might have.
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Post by AdmiralObvious on Jul 21, 2017 20:37:00 GMT
Elimination Final Final Final Once again the game kept crashing at semi decisive results, however, for this tournament Apophys wins!
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