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Post by argonbalt on Jan 28, 2017 18:36:06 GMT
Jan 28, 2017 12:53:43 GMT -5 Enderminion said: and then someone builds a ship with a gun on it and rules the solar system, large unified empires are the only way to survive groups of "space pirates"(they attack lone outposts and stations not cargo vessels), of coruse that opens the door for war and war as we know, never changes. No space pirates have already been mostly debunked thanks to the "no stealth in space". Without a horizon to conceal you, not to mention that the minute you did pull something off the likely more advanced tracking and organisation of space colonies would find it oftly suspicious when you show up three weeks later with a now missing cargo vessel's ore load. If you want a more apt modern comparison think about robbing a UPS truck and trying to re sell the item, there is allot of tags and tracking one everything already i doubt it will stop getting more precise. Also Fuck you i hate that quote so damn much  , "war never changes" how can you honestly type that when we are throwing multi-million credit giant ruby laser and 10Gw space cans around and melting each other to oblivion. Imagine if you showed that to godamn Leonidas of Sparta, or even Napoleon or Nelson or Blake or Yi Sun Sin or Szun Tsu. Not to mention that we regularly contemplate whether it would be better to remove people entirely and replace them with advanced AI or cyber brains. War has been changing for thousands of years, the transition from bronze to iron weapons was one such change that downright created a new era. I mean think about it did humankind in the first thousand years of settlement ever get close to generating even 1GJ of thermal power? How about 10 GJ? "War never changes" Harrumph! to that! Here is a better one for you "The pointy bits come out the slim end mate!" |
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Post by Enderminion on Jan 28, 2017 19:37:30 GMT
Jan 28, 2017 12:53:43 GMT -5 Enderminion said: and then someone builds a ship with a gun on it and rules the solar system, large unified empires are the only way to survive groups of "space pirates"(they attack lone outposts and stations not cargo vessels), of coruse that opens the door for war and war as we know, never changes. No space pirates have already been mostly debunked thanks to the "no stealth in space". Without a horizon to conceal you, not to mention that the minute you did pull something off the likely more advanced tracking and organisation of space colonies would find it oftly suspicious when you show up three weeks later with a now missing cargo vessel's ore load. If you want a more apt modern comparison think about robbing a UPS truck and trying to re sell the item, there is allot of tags and tracking one everything already i doubt it will stop getting more precise. Also Fuck you i hate that quote so damn much , "war never changes" how can you honestly type that when we are throwing multi-million credit giant ruby laser and 10Gw space cans around and melting each other to oblivion. Imagine if you showed that to godamn Leonidas of Sparta, or even Napoleon or Nelson or Blake or Yi Sun Sin or Szun Tsu. Not to mention that we regularly contemplate whether it would be better to remove people entirely and replace them with advanced AI or cyber brains. War has been changing for thousands of years, the transition from bronze to iron weapons was one such change that downright created a new era. I mean think about it did humankind in the first thousand years of settlement ever get close to generating even 1GJ of thermal power? How about 10 GJ? "War never changes" Harrumph! to that! Here is a better one for you "The pointy bits come out the slim end mate!" you taking the quote "war, war never changes" too litteraly I believe the quote means that the reasons for war never change and that the death and destruction of war never change, war takes and it takes and it takes. and that never changes |
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Post by argonbalt on Jan 28, 2017 20:08:23 GMT
But the reasons for war have obviously changed dramatically, fighting for an asteroid made entirely out of precious metals in a potentially libertarian asteroid three dimensional battle ground is just the slightest bit different from fighting for a copper mine in 26th century Bavaria. Fighting for the construction material of an interstellar colonisation fleet is just a little teensy bit different from trying to out produce and devalue those damnable Prussians.
Even the destruction of war changes, in the medieval ages a hundred thousand people dying would be the destruction of a whole city or county, then ten times that number died during a few months in WWI, only to modern times where less than 3000 american servicemen died in Afghanistan. Only if people step back so far to point where you define war as human does something destructive to other human, does that stupid sentence even still mean anything.
War does change, it changes dramatically depending on technology, complexity, resources, ideology etc etc etc simplifying it is still fucking stupid.
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Enderminion's other computer
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Post by Enderminion's other computer on Jan 28, 2017 20:33:59 GMT
But the reasons for war have obviously changed dramatically, fighting for an asteroid made entirely out of precious metals in a potentially libertarian asteroid three dimensional battle ground is just the slightest bit different from fighting for a copper mine in 26th century Bavaria. Fighting for the construction material of an interstellar colonisation fleet is just a little teensy bit different from trying to out produce and devalue those damnable Prussians. Even the destruction of war changes, in the medieval ages a hundred thousand people dying would be the destruction of a whole city or county, then ten times that number died during a few months in WWI, only to modern times where less than 3000 american servicemen died in Afghanistan. Only if people step back so far to point where you define war as human does something destructive to other human, does that stupid sentence even still mean anything. War does change, it changes dramatically depending on technology, complexity, resources, ideology etc etc etc simplifying it is still fucking stupid. If president trump was assassinated by a Mexican bomb thrower I would bet that the USA would eat mexico, does that sound familiar to a certin Austrian Archduke. one rock wants another rocks resources but the other rock won't trade, this has happened before, gulf war. Extremists from the church of astroid mining blow up a RFP destroyer (the RSF cole) sound familiar. when I said death and destrution don't change, some mother, father, son, daughter, brother, sister, grandparents, grandchildren, etc, etc no longer have a certin family member, while the scale may change the affect does not, 1 death is a tradgey 1 million is a statistic - Stalin, 100 million is another statistic. mines and refinereys are destroyed in every war, cities may burn under the power of the Atom or the tourch of a soldier. tl:dr, scale changes impact does not. |
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Post by argonbalt on Jan 28, 2017 21:18:05 GMT
If president trump was assassinated by a Mexican bomb thrower I would bet that the USA would eat mexico, does that sound familiar to a certin Austrian Archduke. one rock wants another rocks resources but the other rock won't trade, this has happened before, gulf war. Extremists from the church of astroid mining blow up a RFP destroyer (the RSF cole) sound familiar. when I said death and destrution don't change, some mother, father, son, daughter, brother, sister, grandparents, grandchildren, etc, etc no longer have a certin family member, while the scale may change the affect does not, 1 death is a tradgey 1 million is a statistic - Stalin, 100 million is another statistic. mines and refinereys are destroyed in every war, cities may burn under the power of the Atom or the tourch of a soldier. tl:dr, scale changes impact does not. You know here you have highlighted exactly what i was tempted to mention earlier. The reason WWI commenced has actually very little to do with the assassination of Franz Ferdinand, if that had not happened then they would have found some other convenience. The main reason that France and Britain hated the central powers was because they could see their pillage and raping of foreign economies as a means of empire was slowly crumbling, what had once been prosperous nations to control were now draining them with rebellions and with the ethical nightmare of what they had committed. Germany and Austria had been late and got little colonies, so instead they focused on rapid industrialisation and public education, their countries urban industry and efficiency was leagues ahead of the allied powers. This is what Britain France and Russia feared, a super efficient model of a nation state that could out produce them. What more proof do you need of this fact then after no less than both of the most devastating world wars of the 20th century, after division for decades and reunification in the span of now only 26 years, they are the worlds top exporter in Europe, still making trillions a year. The fact you stupidly compare the Mexican parasite state-US relationship to this in a hypothetical assassination shows just how weak your grasp of geopolitics is. Listen if i really needed to i could go into half the stupid shit you mentioned here, tear it apart and so on, but i think my big mistake was trying to reason with someone who takes a stupid quote like "dah fightin it goes dah same" seriously. |
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Post by Enderminion on Jan 28, 2017 21:46:14 GMT
If president trump was assassinated by a Mexican bomb thrower I would bet that the USA would eat mexico, does that sound familiar to a certin Austrian Archduke. one rock wants another rocks resources but the other rock won't trade, this has happened before, gulf war. Extremists from the church of astroid mining blow up a RFP destroyer (the RSF cole) sound familiar. when I said death and destrution don't change, some mother, father, son, daughter, brother, sister, grandparents, grandchildren, etc, etc no longer have a certin family member, while the scale may change the affect does not, 1 death is a tradgey 1 million is a statistic - Stalin, 100 million is another statistic. mines and refinereys are destroyed in every war, cities may burn under the power of the Atom or the tourch of a soldier. tl:dr, scale changes impact does not. You know here you have highlighted exactly what i was tempted to mention earlier. The reason WWI commenced has actually very little to do with the assassination of Franz Ferdinand, if that had not happened then they would have found some other convenience. The main reason that France and Britain hated the central powers was because they could see their pillage and raping of foreign economies as a means of empire was slowly crumbling, what had once been prosperous nations to control were now draining them with rebellions and with the ethical nightmare of what they had committed. Germany and Austria had been late and got little colonies, so instead they focused on rapid industrialisation and public education, their countries urban industry and efficiency was leagues ahead of the allied powers. This is what Britain France and Russia feared, a super efficient model of a nation state that could out produce them. What more proof do you need of this fact then after no less than both of the most devastating world wars of the 20th century, after division for decades and reunification in the span of now only 26 years, they are the worlds top exporter in Europe, still making trillions a year. The fact you stupidly compare the Mexican parasite state-US relationship to this in a hypothetical assassination shows just how weak your grasp of geopolitics is. Listen if i really needed to i could go into half the stupid shit you mentioned here, tear it apart and so on, but i think my big mistake was trying to reason with someone who takes a stupid quote like "dah fightin it goes dah same" seriously. really simple now, ruthless dictator wants more power so s/he goes to war. subsitute "power" and "ruthless dictator" for whatever you want. my grasp of geopolitics is not the best I will admit but at least I don't go into using insults. as for WW1, Conrad Von Hotzedorf wanted to go to war before it actully started, and it was Archduke Franz Ferdinand who did not. |
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Post by argonbalt on Jan 28, 2017 22:07:04 GMT
Oh for god's sake this is pointless, once more you fail to acknowledge the detailler! The German empire was aware o it's industrious basis as a superior model to the colony resource extrapolation of the other European allies, of course they were going to use armed conflict as they saw it as their time to shine, even if Franz who lived they would have done something eventually! They were quickly surmising(Hotzendorf included) that if Russia went through a similar process to Germany than Germany would have no means of conquering it, once more it was the technological and societal pressures which were governing things, it was not some simple matter of "power" and "Ruthless dictators".
But this is all besides the point, even in Europe such a conflict as WWI was never seen before or again in the same manner afterwards. War only seems similar in broad strokes anyone who pays attention to the details will always see new means and manners arising in practically every new conflict.
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Post by theholyinquisition on Jan 28, 2017 22:40:56 GMT
Oh for god's sake this is pointless, once more you fail to acknowledge the detailler! The German empire was aware o it's industrious basis as a superior model to the colony resource extrapolation of the other European allies, of course they were going to use armed conflict as they saw it as their time to shine, even if Franz who lived they would have done something eventually! They were quickly surmising(Hotzendorf included) that if Russia went through a similar process to Germany than Germany would have no means of conquering it, once more it was the technological and societal pressures which were governing things, it was not some simple matter of "power" and "Ruthless dictators". But this is all besides the point, even in Europe such a conflict as WWI was never seen before or again in the same manner afterwards. War only seems similar in broad strokes anyone who pays attention to the details will always see new means and manners arising in practically every new conflict. Do you have any evidence for this fear of Russian industrialization, as opposed to the normal fear of Russian power? Any at all? Memorandums? Diaries? Autobiographies? If Germany was such a massively powerful industrial state, how did they lose? How did a blockade force them into starvation? If colonies were failing, why did German pursue them? How do you know the colonies were failing? Rebellions and colonial wars were not new. |
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Post by argonbalt on Jan 28, 2017 22:48:31 GMT
For what specifically?
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Post by theholyinquisition on Jan 28, 2017 22:55:09 GMT
I edited my post for clarity |
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Post by argonbalt on Jan 28, 2017 23:40:35 GMT
Do you have any evidence for this fear of Russian industrialization, as opposed to the normal fear of Russian power? Any at all? Memorandums? Diaries? Autobiographies? If Germany was such a massively powerful industrial state, how did they lose? How did a blockade force them into starvation? If colonies were failing, why did German pursue them? How do you know the colonies were failing? Rebellions and colonial wars were not new. If you can find a copy i would recommend this book: www.amazon.com/Triple-alliance-entente-Bernadotte-Schmitt/dp/B0006BZZM6As it is pretty short and goes into detail on the subject. Otherwise it was a pretty basic observation on the part of the Germans, if their relatively smaller and more surrounded nation could become extremely efficient with the addition of railroads, factories, organised farms etc, imagine a country like Russia where they had ten times the manpower to throw around, it did after all happen and was a counter super power to the US for decades. This channel directly sources all of it's information from historical literature, there is an episode where they talk about the Germans summation of the Russian threat but there are close to 400 episodes now and i am having a bit of difficulty finding it, if i manage to ill post it as well. www.youtube.com/channel/UCUcyEsEjhPEDf69RRVhRh4ABut alas the miracle of industrialisation for Germany it was not magic, industry takes resources, oil was valuable coal etc. So even if they had the machines and factories if you do not have the resources to use them then you are fucked. Hotzendorf warned the Kaiser that Germany should make war no more than thirty times. They overstretched, and the ineptitude of the Austria-Hungarians was becoming apparent. For better details i would personally recommend www.journals.uchicago.edu/toc/jmh/1966/38/4 specifically if you can get a copy of Total Warfare and Compulsory Labor: A Study of the Military-Industrial Complex in Germany during World War I
Robert B. Armeson i got access through my university account, it explains allot of the German failure in resourcing that occurred leading up to their capitulation, namely in the fore mentioned man power. As for the colonies, it was not so much a matter of rebellions spontaneously occurring as had never before hand been anticipated as it was an almost inevitable problem of intelligence. To put it bluntly if you are pulling a fast one on a people, but then to run your railways and mines you need them to at least be proficiantly taught, THEN in addition you colonise and teach them anyways, they will become conscious of the fast one you are trying to pull. In fact if you are especially interested i would recommend this documentary on the Rwandan Genocide, as it shows how Belgium manipulated the local tribal groups (while making up a fake system of definition to help rule) and how they used their power to out the Hutu when they became too competent and threatened their colonial gains forcing them out. Then the Belgian Christian Democratic party branded them as communist rebels and pitted the Tutsi against them. www.youtube.com/watch?v=d83hin5haI4 |
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Post by ross128 on Jan 29, 2017 0:23:55 GMT
You know the discussion is getting heated when one of the posters starts accidentally slipping into French.  But yes. World War I was far, far more complex than just "duke got assassinated, people got mad". It was a massive pileup of treaty obligations, resource/territory disputes, historical grudges, and paranoia about rapidly-industrializing neighbors. Remember what I said about "It's not about if we can do it, it's about if we can do it without angering our neighbors"? Well, Europe at the time was a very complicated powder-keg of antsy neighbors, and that question was amazingly hard to answer. Austria got the wrong answer, thinking the assassination would give them cover to take Serbia without Russia getting involved. Germany thought if they supported Austria they could get others to back down, keeping the conflict local. They were wrong. Russia thought if they mobilized and made threatening gestures across the border they could get Austria to back down, and/or maybe make a land grab if they were intimidating enough. They were also wrong. Mistakes were made, and things quickly spiraled out of control. And even that is a vast oversimplification. WWI was a train wreck. It was kind of like an Alliance Chain in EUIII. I've started so many world wars in that game by trying to annex a tiny one-province nation whose only ally was seemingly a tiny two-province nation... |
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Post by theholyinquisition on Jan 29, 2017 0:59:42 GMT
Do you have any evidence for this fear of Russian industrialization, as opposed to the normal fear of Russian power? Any at all? Memorandums? Diaries? Autobiographies? If Germany was such a massively powerful industrial state, how did they lose? How did a blockade force them into starvation? If colonies were failing, why did German pursue them? How do you know the colonies were failing? Rebellions and colonial wars were not new. If you can find a copy i would recommend this book: www.amazon.com/Triple-alliance-entente-Bernadotte-Schmitt/dp/B0006BZZM6As it is pretty short and goes into detail on the subject. Otherwise it was a pretty basic observation on the part of the Germans, if their relatively smaller and more surrounded nation could become extremely efficient with the addition of railroads, factories, organised farms etc, imagine a country like Russia where they had ten times the manpower to throw around, it did after all happen and was a counter super power to the US for decades. This channel directly sources all of it's information from historical literature, there is an episode where they talk about the Germans summation of the Russian threat but there are close to 400 episodes now and i am having a bit of difficulty finding it, if i manage to ill post it as well. www.youtube.com/channel/UCUcyEsEjhPEDf69RRVhRh4ABut alas the miracle of industrialisation for Germany it was not magic, industry takes resources, oil was valuable coal etc. So even if they had the machines and factories if you do not have the resources to use them then you are fucked. Hotzendorf warned the Kaiser that Germany should make war no more than thirty times. They overstretched, and the ineptitude of the Austria-Hungarians was becoming apparent. For better details i would personally recommend www.journals.uchicago.edu/toc/jmh/1966/38/4 specifically if you can get a copy of Total Warfare and Compulsory Labor: A Study of the Military-Industrial Complex in Germany during World War I
Robert B. Armeson i got access through my university account, it explains allot of the German failure in resourcing that occurred leading up to their capitulation, namely in the fore mentioned man power. As for the colonies, it was not so much a matter of rebellions spontaneously occurring as had never before hand been anticipated as it was an almost inevitable problem of intelligence. To put it bluntly if you are pulling a fast one on a people, but then to run your railways and mines you need them to at least be proficiantly taught, THEN in addition you colonise and teach them anyways, they will become conscious of the fast one you are trying to pull. In fact if you are especially interested i would recommend this documentary on the Rwandan Genocide, as it shows how Belgium manipulated the local tribal groups (while making up a fake system of definition to help rule) and how they used their power to out the Hutu when they became too competent and threatened their colonial gains forcing them out. Then the Belgian Christian Democratic party branded them as communist rebels and pitted the Tutsi against them. www.youtube.com/watch?v=d83hin5haI4I concede to your superior knowledge of the First World War. |
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Post by argonbalt on Jan 29, 2017 1:18:03 GMT
Oh uh thanks i guess, honestly it's not a contest or anything i just wish more people learned history better, i think society as a whole would greatly improve, but half of it is just taking the pro US/Western/my country is better than yours out of it so that people could get a clear picture. Granted that does not make very much sense for the governments who run education but i digress.
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Post by bdcarrillo on Jan 29, 2017 2:27:48 GMT
So... There's a loose banding of people contributing bits of backstory and flavor text... When will ship/module design submissions take place? Voting for inclusion? I'll throw my hat in the ring to pitch in on designing some ships/modules.  Engineering Assistance (EA)"If it ain't broke, we can fix it"A small independent firm based on the Saturnian moon Iapetus dedicated to slight modifications of existing successfully marketed modules and ships in order to create legally distinct 'new' products. We have our own microgravity workshops in orbit over Iapetus staffed with eccentric tinkerers waiting to get their appendages on your goods. Allow us to evaluate* your design for effectiveness, cost, mass, or size optimization today! Incredible solutions include a feature for feature Stinger drone replacement at nearly 1/10th the mass and 1/8th the cost. Unfortunately, it was TOO optimized to work in existing systems. *Submission for evaluation constitutes a hold-harmless agreement in the event of future legislation. No guarantee is implied as to reduction of cost/mass, retention of usefulness, or elimination of exotic elements. |
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, "war never changes" how can you honestly type that when we are throwing multi-million credit giant ruby laser and 10Gw space cans around and melting each other to oblivion. Imagine if you showed that to godamn Leonidas of Sparta, or even Napoleon or Nelson or Blake or Yi Sun Sin or Szun Tsu. Not to mention that we regularly contemplate whether it would be better to remove people entirely and replace them with advanced AI or cyber brains. War has been changing for thousands of years, the transition from bronze to iron weapons was one such change that downright created a new era. I mean think about it did humankind in the first thousand years of settlement ever get close to generating even 1GJ of thermal power? How about 10 GJ? "War never changes" Harrumph! to that! Here is a better one for you "The pointy bits come out the slim end mate!" 
