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Post by deltav on Feb 26, 2017 20:29:53 GMT
About Currency... The materials/ products here aren't important, just illustrative... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Say Space Society A has Aluminum now and wants Beryllium 3 months from from now. Space Society B will have Beryllium 3 months from now, and wants Iron 6 months from now. Space Society C will have Iron 6 months from now, and wants Aluminum now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ None of them can trade/barter directly (because none has exactly what the other wants, nor wants exactly what the other has, and none of them have the material to trade trade at the same time even if they did). Also all the materials are of various relative "values" and "worth". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This kind of situation happens in real life all the time. Products needed, products available to trade, value of these products, and timing rarely match up perfectly. How is this solved without some type of currency/credit system? Even without a currency/credit system, would not a defacto one spring up out of necessity?
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Post by Enderminion on Feb 26, 2017 21:00:00 GMT
The Liberty Exchange dropped the hammer on currency's not related to bitcoins and the like, even says so in game
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Post by apophys on Feb 26, 2017 21:11:32 GMT
Is not a society that forcibly controls the very private right of individuals to procreate, and even would force abortion, by that very definition Totalitarian? Would there be any aspect of public or private life that the ruling body of a Space Society would not have power to control, any limit on their authority? 1. No, because that one removed freedom is not the total sum of all freedoms a person can possibly have. Every society has different rules for what is and what is not allowed; your opinion is colored by your own culture. In a space society, overpopulation reduces everyone's quality of life directly (less oxygenated air, less water, less food, as everything would need to start being rationed). It would be morally reprehensible to reproduce without obtaining a necessary permit. This situation does not apply to Earth; we aren't even close to carrying capacity yet. 2. Of course. For example, freedom of speech and the press (a big one that is always suppressed by totalitarian regimes). Freedom of religion (or of having none).
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Post by theholyinquisition on Feb 26, 2017 22:41:25 GMT
Also was not Nazi Germany the most educated society on earth, perhaps in history at that time? Pretty sure it wasn't.
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Post by deltav on Feb 27, 2017 1:59:44 GMT
"Pretty sure it wasn't..."I like this kind of discussion My point was... Education is no check against Totalitarianism. Let me ask you a question. Smoking bans are all the rage in 2017. What country do you think was the first modern country to put smoking bans/ restrictions in place? I'll answer at the end. -------About German Education before World War 2, it was foremost in the world, in those days very few people went to University worldwide, but the highest percentage in the world was in Germany.... "By 1933 Germany prided itself on being the most educated country in the world and often the most prominent figures in the Nazi party attended university." www.centenarynews.com/article?id=1742-------Top Nobel-Prize winning Nations 1901-1930: Germany (28), UK (16), France (15), USA, Netherlands, Sweden (6 each). www.ebeijing.gov.cn/feature_2/Noble_Forum_2008/Nobel_History/Nobel_Prize_Chemistry/t999136.htm--------The Germans pre-WW2 invented the modern Research University, and had the best in the world. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_European_research_universities-------Germans or those of German descent who fled as adults shortly before WW2 invented more concepts and ideas than perhaps any other group at and around that time... modern automobile, motorcycle, first operational and practical helicopter, first programmable computer and programing language, modern binary numeral system, concrete hand pump, electric hand drill, recyclable paper, CRT (core tech in first televisions), Nipkow disk (the first reliable TV signal tech), modern flamethrower, submachine gun, modern assault rifle, cruise missile, ballistic missile, anti-tank missile, anti-tank grenade, telephones, nuclear fission.... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_inventions_and_discoveriesen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_GermanyConclusion: German science and technology before WW2 was better, or as good as any in the world. Germans invented the idea we have of a secularly focused research university, and pioneered a great deal, some would say most of our modern devices and ideas up until that time. The first country to enact smoking bans and restrictions was Nazi Germany long before most others even realized the harm. This was due to their high educational attainment. So yes... Germany before WW2 was one of, if the not the most educated nation in the world, and perhaps in history at that time.
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Post by deltav on Feb 27, 2017 2:31:37 GMT
Is not a society that forcibly controls the very private right of individuals to procreate, and even would force abortion, by that very definition Totalitarian? Would there be any aspect of public or private life that the ruling body of a Space Society would not have power to control, any limit on their authority? 1. No, because that one removed freedom is not the total sum of all freedoms a person can possibly have. Every society has different rules for what is and what is not allowed; your opinion is colored by your own culture. In a space society, overpopulation reduces everyone's quality of life directly (less oxygenated air, less water, less food, as everything would need to start being rationed). It would be morally reprehensible to reproduce without obtaining a necessary permit. This situation does not apply to Earth; we aren't even close to carrying capacity yet. 2. Of course. For example, freedom of speech and the press (a big one that is always suppressed by totalitarian regimes). Freedom of religion (or of having none). I hear your points, and I concede the discussion because I want to get back to currency which was really my main point. Enjoyed this. But I do want to say one thing. Totalitarianism does not = no freedom. Totalitarianism is about the way the individual looks at the State and the State looks at the individual, not freedom itself. It's not a cartoon picture of no rights, but a concept of the State as the giver of rights to the individual (Totalitarianism) vs individual as the giver of rights to the State (Liberty). Both could appear in reality to be similar in practice. Totalitarianism need not be outwardly oppressive to its citizens, but only to enemies of the State. In Nazi Germany, for most people, they never felt the restrictions of the Nazi regime, they had relative freedom. Only those who ran afoul of the State felt that oppression for the most part. But it was the power the individuals gave to the State, they way they looked at their State that gave them this power.
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Post by Enderminion on Feb 27, 2017 2:31:46 GMT
The germans however ousted all the Really smart people (Enstien) because they were jewish which left them with sub-par scientists and it really doesn't matter if Mr. Joe can do floating point math if he don't understand physics
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Post by deltav on Feb 27, 2017 2:34:33 GMT
The germans however ousted all the Really smart people (Enstien) because they were jewish which left them with sub-par scientists and it really doesn't matter if Mr. Joe can do floating point math if he don't understand physics That's my point. Germany had one of the most educated populaces in the world before WW2 and that did nothing to prevent Totalitarianism. Also Project paperclip. Edit: and Project Osoaviakhim Einstein was German, which proves my point further, but even without people like him, Germany was still far ahead of just about anyone in educational attainment pre WW2.
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Post by Enderminion on Feb 27, 2017 2:40:18 GMT
The germans however ousted all the Really smart people (Enstien) because they were jewish which left them with sub-par scientists and it really doesn't matter if Mr. Joe can do floating point math if he don't understand physics That's my point. Germany had one of the most educated populaces in the world before WW2 and that did nothing to prevent Totalitarianism. Also Project paperclip. Edit: and Project Osoaviakhim they had worse scientist, this is proven because they lost
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Post by deltav on Feb 27, 2017 2:42:03 GMT
That's my point. Germany had one of the most educated populaces in the world before WW2 and that did nothing to prevent Totalitarianism. Also Project paperclip. Edit: and Project Osoaviakhim they had worse scientist, this is proven because they lost Germany didn't lose because of their science. They lost because they didn't have enough people. Edit: Germans killed at least 2 Russians for every German soldier killed by Russians, but the Russians had so many more people. Plus Hitler was briliant in politics, but stupid in War, and overrode his generals. Soviets killed by Germans in Red. German deaths in Yellow.
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Post by Enderminion on Feb 27, 2017 2:44:56 GMT
they had worse scientist, this is proven because they lost Germany didn't lose because of their science. They lost because they didn't have enough people. and if they had better science they could have solved there people problems with robots/mind-control/or clones or what have you
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Post by deltav on Feb 27, 2017 2:50:31 GMT
Germany didn't lose because of their science. They lost because they didn't have enough people. and if they had better science they could have solved there people problems with robots/mind-control/or clones or what have you okay maybe so fair enough
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Post by apophys on Feb 27, 2017 9:39:26 GMT
Nazi Germany would have been fine if they didn't overextend themselves in the war. They should have made peace after winning territory. Invading the USSR was an incredibly stupid decision.
Yes, Nazi Germany was well educated in comparison to other countries. My point about education was that people learn from past mistakes, and every single person in a space society would be well educated, so it's likely that totalitarianism wouldn't repeat. I do concede that there isn't really much evidence to back up my viewpoint.
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Post by thorneel on Feb 27, 2017 12:17:55 GMT
Germany didn't lose because of their science. They lost because they didn't have enough people. and if they had better science they could have solved there people problems with robots/mind-control/or clones or what have you They tried that. They did develop helicopters, jet engines, liquid fuel rocket engines, cruise missiles, ballistic missiles and assault rifles before everyone else. They also experimented with rocket packs and side-firing guns (for shooting from corners with street fighting). As new powers learn every century, technological advance does not guarantee success. Even with the brain drain the insanity of the Nazi regime caused, they still had some pretty good scientists and engineers, (as pointed above, see Paperclip&cie), but those were screwed by politicians. In particularly, Hitler kept pushing for many Wunderwaffe programs instead of focusing more on a few projects that had the best chance for practical effects before the war ended. In fact, possibly their single most short-term effective military invention, the assault rifle, had to be designed behind Hitler's back as he had tried to kill the project. They lost because they declared war to most of the world, they did so because they were an insane nationalist regime that couldn't have survived without doing that (both ideologically and because they were poor long-term administrators) and managed to face the biggest industrial power and the most numerous power in total war simultaneously in addition to active resistance movements in most if not all of their already occupied territories. There was no way they could have won that without at least one of the above points corrected, and probably more than one. To go back somewhat on-topic, in both world wars and the Cold War, such "currency unit" system wouldn't work. Each side controlled some resources and not others, meaning prices for resources could be vastly different between factions. What must happen there is that both sides have enough reserves to dampen production differences, and said differences are minor compared to the XXe century. Also, Liberty Exchange is probably helping as both a medium and a resource provider, like a Switzerland on steroids.
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Post by Easy on Feb 27, 2017 14:39:06 GMT
About Currency... The materials/ products here aren't important, just illustrative... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Say Space Society A has Aluminum now and wants Beryllium 3 months from from now. Space Society B will have Beryllium 3 months from now, and wants Iron 6 months from now. Space Society C will have Iron 6 months from now, and wants Aluminum now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ None of them can trade/barter directly (because none has exactly what the other wants, nor wants exactly what the other has, and none of them have the material to trade trade at the same time even if they did). Also all the materials are of various relative "values" and "worth". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This kind of situation happens in real life all the time. Products needed, products available to trade, value of these products, and timing rarely match up perfectly. How is this solved without some type of currency/credit system? Even without a currency/credit system, would not a defacto one spring up out of necessity? If each colony has a local currency you can do a currency exchange much like FOREX. Colony A sells Aluminum in Acred, Colony C trades Ccred for Acred and buys the aluminum. C might even take a loan of Acred. Colony A now has Acred and Ccred to purchase Bcred to get Be from colony B. And it will continue. FOREX is a zero sum game where currency is not created nor destroyed and the exchange rate is based only on the willingness of the buyers and sellers. It is also how the world currency markets work.
Charlie on colony C wants Aluminum. Angela on colony A sells Aluminum for 3 Acred/kg. Angela doesn't accept Ccred, which is what Charlie has. Charlie negotiates with Alexander to purchase 3MAcred for 4MCcred. Charlie may pay Alexander the Ccred in lump or over an established time. Either way Charlie now has 3MAcred to purchase Aluminum from Angela. Charlie doesn't need to know Alexander personally, especially if he's paying immediately. Charlie logs onto the FOREX and bids to sell 4MCcred for 3MAcred. Alexander sees the bid and thinks it is a good deal and accepts the bid. Both exchange currency.
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