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Post by captinjoehenry on Oct 6, 2016 1:17:55 GMT
Ok so I love to build these really great ships that have lots of armor and guns but they tend to have really low delta v which can be an issue. I would really like to get around this with unmanned tanker drones which count as missiles as far as the game cares but I can't start with them and launching a 81,000 ton drone crashes the game :/ I mean the drones provide one full refueling and then I ditch them. I really don't want to put crew on expendable fuel tanks
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Post by tukuro on Oct 6, 2016 1:23:26 GMT
Why not make a separate station and use drones to ferry the fuel to the main fleet? Only the station has to be crewed this way.
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Post by ross128 on Oct 6, 2016 1:46:05 GMT
I was going to say that due to how UHMWPE works right now there's not much point to carrying drones as "drop tanks", because the benefit of dropping a tank that only weighs 0.1% of the fuel it carries is pretty negligible. Independent tankers are still useful because you can deploy them without re-designing an existing ship, and they keep your hull volume down because you don't have to allocate space for them at any point. A fuel drone doesn't have that benefit because it still has to be inside your ship at some point.
However, I suppose if you have a need to carry 81,000 tons of fuel, 0.1% of that weight is suddenly very worth thinking about. Even so, a drone's mass/fuel and volume/fuel ratios are so much worse than a UHMWPE tank's (especially since you need to keep the launching equipment) that an independent tanker is still a better solution because, again, at least you don't have to fit that inside your hull somehow.
Like Tukuro said though, that "tanker" could consist of a station that launches fueling drones. Probably a lot more fuel-efficient that way too, since the 81,000 tons can sit in the station not needing to be pushed anywhere, so you're not burning as much fuel to move fuel and the drones can utilize high-efficiency, low-thrust engines.
You'd have to be real careful to turn off the fuel pump before leaving the fleet screen though, if you don't the drones will transfer every drop of fuel they have, then self-destruct. Though depending on the nature of the mission and how many spare drones the station has (keeping in mind the only restrictions on the station would be your budget, because it never has to move), that may actually be a desirable outcome since sending a new drone takes much less time than a round-trip to refill the old one.
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Post by captinjoehenry on Oct 6, 2016 2:45:09 GMT
What I mean is starting the game with drone deployed. I don't want to launch them. So basicly I just wanted to be able to make an unmanned tanker. The reason is my super ships carry 60,000 tons of fuel and get all of 3ish km/s of delta v so if I can bring along a drone with 30k delta v and 80,000 tons of fuel I can refill my super ship with a drone so I don't need to put people on the tanker as it is easier to bring along a tanker than to expand the fuel capacity of my ship
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Post by princesskibble on Oct 6, 2016 3:08:45 GMT
Yes please this!
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Post by ross128 on Oct 6, 2016 3:39:03 GMT
What I mean is starting the game with drone deployed. I don't want to launch them. So basicly I just wanted to be able to make an unmanned tanker. The reason is my super ships carry 60,000 tons of fuel and get all of 3ish km/s of delta v so if I can bring along a drone with 30k delta v and 80,000 tons of fuel I can refill my super ship with a drone so I don't need to put people on the tanker as it is easier to bring along a tanker than to expand the fuel capacity of my ship ___________________________________________________________________________________ Ah, in that case a fleet of drones deployed from a station will work fine. They'll be rather large drones, but a station has no upper limit on its mass (outside of mission requirements and whatever the game's absolute maximums are) because it doesn't need to move. The fleet should also prove more efficient than a single 80kt tanker too, because the diminishing returns in terms of delta-V gained per units of extra fuel are harsh. Basically, every rocket has an optimum mass past which adding more fuel becomes wasteful, and tankers are no exception. Hmm, since these wouldn't have to maneuver in combat, I wonder if it would be viable to stick a reactor in there optimized to be as light as possible, and drive the drones with an MPD thruster (or a cluster of them) to take advantage of the really high exhaust velocities those can get. The thruster itself can be made as light as a few grams, rendering an excellent thrust/mass ratio despite their pitiful thrust, the main difficulty would be getting a power source that can drive it while still being light enough to push around with single-digit kilonewtons. Technically speaking these drones would only need a few tenths of a g of acceleration to keep pace with a capital ship in orbital maneuvers.
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Post by JagerIV on Oct 7, 2016 2:31:05 GMT
I think what he's suggesting, if I understand, is he wishes he could just have unmanned tankers. I did briefly feel guilty in some of those maneuver missions where I drain all a tanker's delta v, then leave its crew of 30 or so to slowly starve to death in the depths of space.
I had really wished I could make them unmanned, but I couldn't figure out how, so just chalked it up to gameplay and the idea that they weren't really manned, or in one case I tried making a whole bunch of extra crew space in the one ship in the fleet that was actually supposed to make it, on the theory all those other doomed ship's crew evacuated to the one real ship during refueling.
But, while drone refueler ships would make sense (circumventing that whole suicide mission element), it would also open up the possibility of drone capital ships, which is a can of worms I don't think this game wants to deal with.
Now, one possible work arround would be to have a "Command Ship" which holds some sort of "command module" which would mean a large droneship would be deployed with it as an independent vessel of the fleet, but the command ship would have to have the crew to do basic maintaince on all the drone ships attached.
But that devolves into "There's one ship in the fleet with a crew and everything else is remote controled". And while that might make sense in, say, a civilian fleet (There really isn't all that much reason not to have a crew ship and a bunch of unmanned cargo ships slaved to it if a couple small hulls is better than one big one) there are obvious downsides to doing that on a military craft (say, you might want some higher degree of independent action, there's more cases where things need to be handled now, rather than when the crew gets to it, and of course the issues of electronic warefare and hacking stuff).
Which of course are all issues we can't really model in the game.
So, it probably makes more sense to keep how much can actually be remote controlled limited.
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Post by captinjoehenry on Oct 7, 2016 18:55:17 GMT
Well it actually turns out you can already do that in the game. Make remote capships. Just make a cap ship, give it a remote control, make the worlds largest drone launcher, launch the drone! if the game did not crash you now have a drone cap ship! I would do that with a station launching my tankers but it turns out the game does not like launching a 80,000 ton drone. It crashed you see.
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Post by princesskibble on Oct 7, 2016 19:02:22 GMT
it would also open up the possibility of drone capital ships, which is a can of worms I don't think this game wants to deal with. What's the point of limiting players options in a game thats supposed to not have a specific vision?
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Post by blothorn on Oct 7, 2016 19:09:42 GMT
It messes up some other pieces of logic, such as weapons with "targets shots" disabled (so as to not waste ammo on small targets) not firing on unmanned cap ships. This could be fixed--I want more flexibility with those options to, for example, make anti-drone missiles that cannot be spoofed by micromissiles.
More generally, there are maintenance concerns and such with unmanned ships that can be handwaved away for small, disposable drones that are harder to do for capships--one of the game's assumptions does seem to be that not everything can be automated.
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Post by captinjoehenry on Oct 7, 2016 19:12:22 GMT
Well I mean the issue with drone capships is negated by having a command ship that is close by to limit the light speed delay. I mean it might just be best to make drones over x mass require to be in a fleet with a manned ship to deal with all the issues the dev brought up (I can't remember his user name ) as they were good points mostly because of lightspeed delay so if lightspeed delay is added it might work best?
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Post by ross128 on Oct 7, 2016 21:11:19 GMT
A very simple solution to the "targets shots" problem would be to have the difference between "shots" and "ships" be an arbitrary cross-section size.
Which means basically, what it would really be asking is "is that thing big enough that I have a reasonable chance of hitting it?"
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Post by beta on Oct 7, 2016 21:26:34 GMT
Have the tick be a number instead.
"Fire at cross-sections greater than this"
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Post by jageriv on Oct 8, 2016 2:06:57 GMT
it would also open up the possibility of drone capital ships, which is a can of worms I don't think this game wants to deal with. What's the point of limiting players options in a game thats supposed to not have a specific vision? Its more about a shortcut to model things (which we have to do so we can run this on non-supercomputers) and operating within the constraints of the model. Like I said, there are a lot of downsides to unmanned capital ships. Downsides we can't actually model well. So, if we implemented unmanned craft as is, you'd have all the benefits, if there were benefits, and none of the downsides, because the downsides (light speed lag, not having people immediately available for damage control, or a captain having a direct view of the battlefield, data transfer limits, electronic warefare, long term maintance, excetera) are things we can't actually model, or at least don't model right now. Thus, at this point it's easier to say "you can't do that" because we can't model how you would do that. At least in a realistic way. We have a rough idea how a crewed ship would work. We have no data on how an uncrewed capital ship would work. A similar thing is present with our current nuclear engines. If you look at, say, Atomic Rocket on its list of nuclear rockets, you will see a huge variety of options for the nuclear rocket. We basically just use a NERVA type engine. Why one option out of the multitude available? Well, on the one hand you have playability and designer time constraints: you have to limit options and depth so the average player can produce a working model and the computer doesn't crash trying to model it, and a designer only has so much time: if it takes a month of programing work to get one engine type to work properly, it be years before he could get around to doing even a small part of the possible models. On the other hand, there's the reality that NERVA type engines are at present the best understood Nuclear Rocket Engine. Any model is based on its underlying assumptions. With a NERVA rocket, a larger percent of those underlying assumptions can be backed up with real world data. Which brings us to drone vs manned ships. No one has built a massive space warship. Thus, we have to rely on educated guesses on its crewing requirements. However, we do have some spaceships, warships, and aircraft to draw some information from to make guesses on broader crew requirements. With an uncrewed ship, we basically have nothing. We have no real world examples to draw on to figure out what is necessary to run a 10,000 tonne craft with no crew onboard. The designer would basically have to guess, which would mean the game would have to be beholden to the designer's vision of what an uncrewed ship would look like.
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Post by captinjoehenry on Oct 8, 2016 3:05:25 GMT
Ok so here is my work around for getting a tanker fleet. I made a 200,000ton tanker. Made it into a drone (it's a missile according to the game) so just 20 10,000ton fuel tanks a 13.2mw reactor a remote control and a refueler. Then I made a 1 GW launcher a 100 tanker ammo box, put those together into a station and at the start of the game I just launch the tanker (missile) fleet and it works!
The only real issue is I just took the gunship removed all the crew put in remote controls and I now have a gunship drone launched from the same launcher and basicly the same station... So yes it is indeed possible to have drone cap ships already... Their even cheaper, lighter and tougher than the crewed counter parts as they don't have squishy crew in them...
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