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Post by logaritm on Aug 23, 2017 12:25:21 GMT
So finally i have gathered enough data to post a mock-up of a modded material.
Chrysotile is a natural fiber with good insulation for both thermal and electrical, the problem is that even though it used to be a common material used data on its properties are surprisingly hard to come by and some sources vary widely between them. This is probably because since Chrysotile is a natural fiber it's internal structure contains flaws and other irregularities. I'm pretty certain that the data is also a mishmash of single fibers, when it's spun into a wool for insulation and when it's used in a composite. Two properties i had to guesstimate was the Bulk and shear modulus which is based on E-glass fiber with reduced numbers.
I am not an engineer nor do i have much engineering knowledge so anyone that knows more are free to guesstimate better values for the bulk/shear modulus or any other value.
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Post by Rocket Witch on Aug 23, 2017 13:57:47 GMT
So finally i have gathered enough data to post a mock-up of a modded material. Chrysotile is a natural fiber with good insulation for both thermal and electrical, the problem is that even though it used to be a common material used data on its properties are surprisingly hard to come by and some sources vary widely between them. This is probably because since Chrysotile is a natural fiber it's internal structure contains flaws and other irregularities. I'm pretty certain that the data is also a mishmash of single fibers, when it's spun into a wool for insulation and when it's used in a composite. Two properties i had to guesstimate was the Bulk and shear modulus which is based on E-glass fiber with reduced numbers. I am not an engineer nor do i have much engineering knowledge so anyone that knows more are free to guesstimate better values for the bulk/shear modulus or any other value. Great job! We had discussed asbestos before but I hadn't made any headway with it. - It certainly looks like wool in regards to density at least, as an apparent value. Wikipedia suggests 2.53 g/ml = 2530 kg/m 3 but I don't know which way would make more sense for use in space. - The game generated Poisson's ratio comes out at 0.5 (soft as rubber). The stock basalt fiber composite is more similar to asbestos than glass fiber and has 0.26; you might want to base values on that instead. - I would suggest a refractive index change to silicon dioxide too, as this is a silicate mineral and contains no carbon for graphite at all. |
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Post by treptoplax on Aug 23, 2017 16:48:17 GMT
So i have been searching around for any experimental high strength alloy/cermet/ceramic and i have turned up nothing, even more supprising is that of which i found did not even come close the strength of "Vanadium chromium steel", i think the highest i found where at about 3000Mpa~, so i turned my search to finding any information about this steel alloy instead which has so far turned up nothing. Does anyone have a source for this alloy so i can see if im reading the data wrong somehow. This is probably related to (but not quite the same as?) the stainless steel used in high-end knives. European-made ones, at least, will often be stamped "X50CrMoV15", denoting that it's iron with 0.5% carbon and 15% Chromium, Molybdenum, and Vanadium (mostly chromium). The Chromium is primarily for stain/oxidation resistance (leads to formation of a thin impermiable oxide coat), with about .5% Mo and V for mechanical properties. Probably you'ld use less Chromium in our applications...? It's not just about the raw materials, either. You get hugely different properties based on the crystal structure of the steel, which also depends on things like how fast and evenly it was cooled, how it was processed afterward, etc. etc. Really VCS is a whole huge family of steel alloys, many of which are proprietary. |
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Post by logaritm on Aug 23, 2017 16:55:45 GMT
Great job! We had discussed asbestos before but I hadn't made any headway with it. - It certainly looks like wool in regards to density at least, as an apparent value. Wikipedia suggests 2.53 g/ml = 2530 kg/m 3 but I don't know which way would make more sense for use in space. - The game generated Poisson's ratio comes out at 0.5 (soft as rubber). The stock basalt fiber composite is more similar to asbestos than glass fiber and has 0.26; you might want to base values on that instead. - I would suggest a refractive index change to silicon dioxide too, as this is a silicate mineral and contains no carbon for graphite at all. Gonna put all of those suggestions into the updated version contained in this post, also like i said, since it's a naturally formed silicate mineral it contains imperfections/contaminations which leads to the, sometimes massive range the properties are reported at, for now I'm gonna stick to using the middle value of the reported ranges, by the way, this variability is also present in the reported thermal and electrical isolation, this is however not only because of the imperfections but also because Chrysotile is highly hygroscopic, but since i don't think this matters much in vacuum i have tended towards the higher end of the reported range. Material Chrysotile
Elements Mg Si H O
ElementCount 3 2 2 4.5
IsFibrous true
IsPorous true
Density_kg__m3 2400
YieldStrength_MPa 3000
UltimateTensileStrength_MPa 3000
YoungsModulus_GPa 160
ShearModulus_GPa 100
MeltingPoint_K 850
SpecificHeat_J__kg_K 600
ThermalConductivity_W__m_K 0.9
ThermalExpansion__K 20e-6
Resistivity_Ohm_m 2e9
DielectricStrength_MV__m 6
RelativePermittivity 5
RefractiveIndex silicon dioxide
RoughnessCoefficient .9
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Post by logaritm on Aug 24, 2017 12:06:58 GMT
This is probably related to (but not quite the same as?) the stainless steel used in high-end knives. European-made ones, at least, will often be stamped "X50CrMoV15", denoting that it's iron with 0.5% carbon and 15% Chromium, Molybdenum, and Vanadium (mostly chromium). The Chromium is primarily for stain/oxidation resistance (leads to formation of a thin impermiable oxide coat), with about .5% Mo and V for mechanical properties. Probably you'ld use less Chromium in our applications...? It's not just about the raw materials, either. You get hugely different properties based on the crystal structure of the steel, which also depends on things like how fast and evenly it was cooled, how it was processed afterward, etc. etc. Really VCS is a whole huge family of steel alloys, many of which are proprietary. yah i know how you can alter the structure of an alloy in many different ways, but the whole weird thing was how i searched hard for it and turned up nothing. Anywho, talking about how the internal structure of an alloy can effect it's properties, i been doing some searching for the properties of amorphous metals and high entropy alloys, but so far i have only found data on crude version, this is probably because both of them are highly experimental, even more so then graphene and carbon nanotubes. |
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Post by treptoplax on Aug 24, 2017 16:10:28 GMT
This is probably related to (but not quite the same as?) the stainless steel used in high-end knives. European-made ones, at least, will often be stamped "X50CrMoV15", denoting that it's iron with 0.5% carbon and 15% Chromium, Molybdenum, and Vanadium (mostly chromium). The Chromium is primarily for stain/oxidation resistance (leads to formation of a thin impermiable oxide coat), with about .5% Mo and V for mechanical properties. Probably you'ld use less Chromium in our applications...? It's not just about the raw materials, either. You get hugely different properties based on the crystal structure of the steel, which also depends on things like how fast and evenly it was cooled, how it was processed afterward, etc. etc. Really VCS is a whole huge family of steel alloys, many of which are proprietary. yah i know how you can alter the structure of an alloy in many different ways, but the whole weird thing was how i searched hard for it and turned up nothing. Anywho, talking about how the internal structure of an alloy can effect it's properties, i been doing some searching for the properties of amorphous metals and high entropy alloys, but so far i have only found data on crude version, this is probably because both of them are highly experimental, even more so then graphene and carbon nanotubes. VCS probably just isn't specific enough to find specific material details (really most of the steels listed are some form of VCS, so I'm not sure what it's supposed to represent exactly). Here's a really neat site MakeItFrom.com I just found with reasonably detailed specs on dozens of alloys and other materials, in case anybody wants to have a go at modding in MDF or marble.  (Cork is listed and might actually be useful, come to think of it... oh, wait, is already there...!) |
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Post by Enderminion on Aug 24, 2017 17:03:04 GMT
I thought someone had figured out VCS was tool steel, anyway, someone might want to take a shot at rolled homogeneous steel (WW2 tank armour) and Krupp Cemented Steel (WW1 and WW2 battleship armour)
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Post by AdmiralObvious on Aug 25, 2017 19:48:54 GMT
I thought someone had figured out VCS was tool steel, anyway, someone might want to take a shot at rolled homogeneous steel (WW2 tank armour) and Krupp Cemented Steel (WW1 and WW2 battleship armour) I'm pretty sure both of them would be objectively worse than VCS. Though that'd depend on who manufactured it and when. |
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Post by Rocket Witch on Aug 25, 2017 21:38:20 GMT
Various naval armours are detailed here: www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/metalprpsept2009.htmBelow, I tabulated two forms of Krupp armour. | Time Frame | Tensile | Yield | Y/T | % EL | % RA | Brinell | | 1894-1918 | 92-105 | 61-71 | .66-.68 | 18-22 | 59 | 680/225 | | 1928-1945 | 112-117 | 85-90 | .76 | 22 | 64 | 700/240 |
These are the original version and that later used on the Deutschland class Panzerschiffen. Assuming the strength values are in ksi, that offers 806 MPa at best. Technically this seems to be a face-hardened chromium-nickel steel; which for the game would entail layering two steels with different properties. Wikipedia says it's similar to AES 4340 but I haven't directly found that and I don't know if it's the same as AISI 4340. I might be able to add it for interest but it seems similar to the precision rifle steel I made already. |
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Post by ironclad6 on Aug 25, 2017 21:42:41 GMT
KCS is Chrome-Nickel Steel that's had high pressure, high temperature carbon dioxide gas blown over the surface to harden it. It's objectively much inferior to any modern through hardened steel.
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Post by logaritm on Aug 26, 2017 11:26:41 GMT
So i think RHA steel is also kinda outdated compared to what we in game already have access to, especially with the cost calculations. But i did find a paper from the "Army research laboratory" detailing a project to improve on rolled homogeneous armor steel, here is a link to the download, the only mechanical properties i found are all from this paper and which are the yield strength, ultimate tensile strength and elongation, the paper also details the composition of the alloys.
CHV Impact
at-40°F
Tempering Temperature(°F) HRc (ft-lb) 0.2% YS (psi) UTS (psi) %Elongation YS/UTS
425 47.5 21.5 189,000 240,000 14.4 0.79
925 40.5 24.0 168,000 190,000 17.2 0.88
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Post by AdmiralObvious on Aug 27, 2017 1:22:39 GMT
Am I missing something? I'm trying to reinstall the mods here, and the game always insists that I didn't put in any reaction products or inputs when i try to copy over the chemical reactions for basically everything I try... Even though they clearly have their own line, and acceptable materials.
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Post by Rocket Witch on Aug 27, 2017 14:44:16 GMT
Am I missing something? I'm trying to reinstall the mods here, and the game always insists that I didn't put in any reaction products or inputs when i try to copy over the chemical reactions for basically everything I try... Even though they clearly have their own line, and acceptable materials. Do you know ChemicalReactions.txt belongs in Data, not Data\Materials? Beyond that I'll need to you say exactly what you're doing. |
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Post by AdmiralObvious on Aug 27, 2017 17:01:29 GMT
Am I missing something? I'm trying to reinstall the mods here, and the game always insists that I didn't put in any reaction products or inputs when i try to copy over the chemical reactions for basically everything I try... Even though they clearly have their own line, and acceptable materials. Do you know ChemicalReactions.txt belongs in Data, not Data\Materials? Beyond that I'll need to you say exactly what you're doing. Yeah, I did that. Regardless of what I'm putting in, say simply copying Ethane and it's reactions, the game keeps insisting that there's "null reactants" and "null products". |
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Post by Rocket Witch on Aug 27, 2017 19:34:40 GMT
Yeah, I did that. Regardless of what I'm putting in, say simply copying Ethane and it's reactions, the game keeps insisting that there's "null reactants" and "null products". I've only experienced this from including a space or something somewhere, or when I'm working on something and forgot to actually add a number... or, I seem to remember getting it for something else but can't remember what. Make sure your editor is saving the document as plain text, and not doing anything like inserting extra-spaced lines for new paragraphs. Failing that... I dunno. If you tell me what you want, I can make a working ChemicalReactions.txt for you. |
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(Cork is listed and might actually be useful, come to think of it... oh, wait, is already there...!)
