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Post by apophys on Nov 26, 2016 2:25:24 GMT
Lowering reactor output temperature will always increase output power. This is not a straight upgrade, however, because it also increases the radiator area required. If you have 4x redundant radiators, for example, the above change is overall a downgrade. Radiator inter-reflection acts much like redundancy, too.
Maybe include a column for the minimum amorphous carbon radiator mass & cost associated with a reactor, so that people can decide how much redundancy they like and choose based on that?
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Post by ash19256 on Nov 26, 2016 15:03:13 GMT
Lowering reactor output temperature will always increase output power. This is not a straight upgrade, however, because it also increases the radiator area required. If you have 4x redundant radiators, for example, the above change is overall a downgrade. Radiator inter-reflection acts much like redundancy, too. Maybe include a column for the minimum amorphous carbon radiator mass & cost associated with a reactor, so that people can decide how much redundancy they like and choose based on that? From what I've heard, 2400 Kelvin is the most radiator efficient output temperature, at least for reactors and the like, period.
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Post by n2maniac on Nov 26, 2016 21:03:13 GMT
Lowering reactor output temperature will always increase output power. This is not a straight upgrade, however, because it also increases the radiator area required. If you have 4x redundant radiators, for example, the above change is overall a downgrade. Radiator inter-reflection acts much like redundancy, too. Maybe include a column for the minimum amorphous carbon radiator mass & cost associated with a reactor, so that people can decide how much redundancy they like and choose based on that? From what I've heard, 2400 Kelvin is the most radiator efficient output temperature, at least for reactors and the like, period. I had found slightly warmer (2500-2600) as optimal, but at that point it is almost personal preference. Are you claiming that, for a given electrical power, you can decrease radiator area going from 2700K to 2800K? My math on your designs (plus a few quick ones at 2900K and 2400K) indicates the 2600K design would minimize radiator area. Radiator Temp (K) Relative radiator area per thermal output Reactor efficiency (electrical per thermal) Comparative radiator area (area per electrical) Relative radiator area (area per electrical)
2900 75% ~4% 1878% 185%
2800 86% 7.09% 1219% 120%
2700 100% 9.83% 1017% 100%
2600 116% 13.10% 888% 87%
2500 136% 14.60% 932% 92%
2400 160% ~15% 1068% 105% If you multiply this area for redundancy you still want to minimize radiator area as long as that remains a pain point. This implies 2600K is near optimal, maybe 2550K. Am I still missing something?
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Post by apophys on Nov 27, 2016 2:49:28 GMT
Reactor dump @ tessfield These new reactors are optimized for 2400K. Lowering the temperature on a reactor allows the inner turbo to work less without meltdown, resulting in a mass reduction. For 2500K to 2400K, this reduction is significant, and I think it's worth it when factoring in the increase in radiators. Testing of reactors at 2300K results in a smaller mass decrease, and the associated radiator increase makes that not worth it to me. So I remain with 2400K as my new standard operating temperature. I added the heat value, so people can calculate mass and cost efficiency for the full system with their preferred radiators (and also check their decoys). Name | Author | Power | Temp. | Heat | Price | Mass | Shielded | 10MW Standard II | apophys | 10.1MW | 2400K | 66.8MW | 5.24kc | 153kg | No |
ThermoelectricFissionReactorModule 10.1 MW Thermoelectric Fission Reactor 2 ReactorCoreDimensions_m 0.1 0.1 NuclearReactor Coolant Sodium Moderator Diamond ModeratorMass_kg 7 Fuel U-233 Dioxide FuelMass_kg 1 FuelEnrichment_Percent 0.099 ControlRodComposition Boron Nitride ControlRodMass_kg 1 NeutronReflector Diamond ReflectorThickness_m 0 AverageNeutronFlux__m2_s 2e+020 InnerTurbopump Composition Amorphous Carbon PumpRadius_m 0.19 RotationalSpeed_RPM 440 ThermocoupleInnerDimensions_m 0.5 0.63 Thermocouple PTypeComposition Tungsten NTypeComposition Tantalum Length_m 0.001 ThermocoupleExitTemperature_K 2400 OuterCoolant Sodium OuterTurbopump Composition Lithium PumpRadius_m 0.1 RotationalSpeed_RPM 460
Name | Author | Power | Temp. | Heat | Price | Mass | Shielded | 100MW Standard II | apophys | 100MW | 2400K | 668MW | 46.1kc | 1.26t | No |
(Took out the shield for this one, because the shield mass was a significant fraction of its total with the new mass reduction.) ThermoelectricFissionReactorModule 100 MW Thermoelectric Fission Reactor ReactorCoreDimensions_m 0.1 0.1 NuclearReactor Coolant Sodium Moderator Diamond ModeratorMass_kg 7 Fuel U-233 Dioxide FuelMass_kg 2 FuelEnrichment_Percent 0.45 ControlRodComposition Boron Nitride ControlRodMass_kg 2 NeutronReflector Diamond ReflectorThickness_m 0 AverageNeutronFlux__m2_s 2.2e+020 InnerTurbopump Composition Amorphous Carbon PumpRadius_m 0.4 RotationalSpeed_RPM 470 ThermocoupleInnerDimensions_m 1 3.1 Thermocouple PTypeComposition Tungsten NTypeComposition Tantalum Length_m 0.001 ThermocoupleExitTemperature_K 2400 OuterCoolant Sodium OuterTurbopump Composition Calcium PumpRadius_m 0.24 RotationalSpeed_RPM 390
Name | Author | Power | Temp. | Heat | Price | Mass | Shielded | 1GW Standard II | apophys | 1.01GW | 2400K | 6.75GW | 457kc | 11.2t | Yes
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ThermoelectricFissionReactorModule 1.01 GW Thermoelectric Fission Reactor ReactorCoreDimensions_m 0.1 0.1 NuclearReactor Coolant Sodium Moderator Diamond ModeratorMass_kg 3 Fuel U-233 Dioxide FuelMass_kg 10 FuelEnrichment_Percent 0.91 ControlRodComposition U-233 Dioxide ControlRodMass_kg 15 NeutronReflector Diamond ReflectorThickness_m 0.44 AverageNeutronFlux__m2_s 2.2e+020 InnerTurbopump Composition Amorphous Carbon PumpRadius_m 0.8 RotationalSpeed_RPM 590 ThermocoupleInnerDimensions_m 5 6.2 Thermocouple PTypeComposition Tungsten NTypeComposition Tantalum Length_m 0.001 ThermocoupleExitTemperature_K 2400 OuterCoolant Sodium OuterTurbopump Composition Calcium PumpRadius_m 0.48 RotationalSpeed_RPM 550
Name | Author | Power | Temp. | Heat | Price | Mass | Shielded | 10GW Standard II | apophys | 10.1GW | 2400K | 70.6GW | 4.5Mc | 107t | Yes
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ThermoelectricFissionReactorModule 10.1 GW Thermoelectric Fission Reactor 2 ReactorCoreDimensions_m 0.25 0.34 NuclearReactor Coolant Sodium Moderator Boron Nitride ModeratorMass_kg 5 Fuel U-233 Dioxide FuelMass_kg 98 FuelEnrichment_Percent 0.97 ControlRodComposition Boron Nitride ControlRodMass_kg 113 NeutronReflector Diamond ReflectorThickness_m 0.46 AverageNeutronFlux__m2_s 2.2e+020 InnerTurbopump Composition Amorphous Carbon PumpRadius_m 1.8 RotationalSpeed_RPM 540 ThermocoupleInnerDimensions_m 11 29 Thermocouple PTypeComposition Tungsten NTypeComposition Tantalum Length_m 0.001 ThermocoupleExitTemperature_K 2400 OuterCoolant Sodium OuterTurbopump Composition Boron PumpRadius_m 1.1 RotationalSpeed_RPM 560
Also, it seems you missed my 25GW one, because it hasn't been edited into the OP yet. Name | Author | Power | Temp. | Heat | Price | Mass | Shielded | 25GW Standard II | apophys | 25.1GW | 2400K | 181GW | 12.3Mc | 269t | Yes |
ThermoelectricFissionReactorModule 25.1 GW Thermoelectric Fission Reactor ReactorCoreDimensions_m 0.33 0.49 NuclearReactor Coolant Sodium Moderator Boron Nitride ModeratorMass_kg 0 Fuel U-233 Dioxide FuelMass_kg 251 FuelEnrichment_Percent 0.97 ControlRodComposition Boron Nitride ControlRodMass_kg 303 NeutronReflector Diamond ReflectorThickness_m 0.5 AverageNeutronFlux__m2_s 2.2e+020 InnerTurbopump Composition Diamond PumpRadius_m 2.6 RotationalSpeed_RPM 460 ThermocoupleInnerDimensions_m 30 30 Thermocouple PTypeComposition Tungsten NTypeComposition Tantalum Length_m 0.001 ThermocoupleExitTemperature_K 2400 OuterCoolant Sodium OuterTurbopump Composition Boron PumpRadius_m 1.1 RotationalSpeed_RPM 580
I'm pretty sure it's currently impossible to make a reasonable 50+ GW reactor.
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Post by apophys on Nov 27, 2016 6:22:25 GMT
Turbopumps/Injectors: Here's a list of good materials for them, in order of lightest to heaviest. Pick the lightest/cheapest material that the particular application can withstand. (I have not yet encountered an application that couldn't be satisfied by one of these.) Material | Lithium | Polyethylene | Calcium | Boron | Amorphous Carbon
| Diamond | Density (kg/m3)
| 530
| 910 | 1600 | 2100 | 2100 | 3500 | Cost (c/kg)
| 4.04 | 21.3 | 5.86 | 17.4 | 22.4 | 21.8 |
Optimum rotating speed in reactors is usually somewhere between 400-600 RPM. Too low, and coolant in the pump adds mass. Too high, and bracing adds mass. For different reactors, the optimum is different. (I haven't figured out the factors that move the optimum around within this range.) Applications other than reactors can use slower rotating speeds, because there is less penalty on large size. Reaction Wheels: Here's a list of good materials for them, in order of lightest to heaviest. Pick the lightest/cheapest material that satisfies your desired traverse speed and power draw. This list is probably not comprehensive, but close. Material | Lithium | Polyethylene | Calcium | Boron | Diamond | Selenium
| Zr Copper
| Zinc
| V.C. Steel
| Cadmium
| Nickel
| Lead
| Platinum
| Osmium
| Density (kg/m3)
| 530
| 910 | 1600 | 2100 | 3500 | 4800
| 5700
| 7100
| 7500
| 8700
| 8900
| 11000
| 21000
| 23000
| Cost (c/kg)
| 4.04 | 21.3 | 5.86 | 17.4 | 21.8 | 2.59
| 23.4
| 3.51
| 42.6
| 2.73
| 9.67
| 5.13
| 16
| 27.6
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Engine nozzles: For low mass and size, it is very important to keep throat radius small, because that controls the scaling of the entire nozzle. Recommended material: diamond. It has very high thermal conductivity, very low thermal expansion, very high melting point, and high yield strength. Thus, it will not easily crack from thermal stress, and it will have no difficulty spreading and radiating away its heat. Resistojets: Coil material should be Tantalum Hafnium Carbide, not Tantalum Carbide. Higher melting point, no downsides. Lasers: You can take all the information from this post to fill the section with.
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Post by tessfield on Nov 28, 2016 19:38:53 GMT
Heya apophys! Thanks for all the info and modules! Will work on adding all that now. Also, thanks n2maniac, that percentage table looks like important info to show over here, I'll add it.
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Post by randomletters on Nov 28, 2016 20:02:07 GMT
While Li seems to be the best as far as weight/cost for rotation wheels it's very difficult to get decent speed on low power turrets. So far the best I've found for <1 Mw designs is Magnesium. I've also got a nuke for you. 6.07 kt 6.26 kc 11.2 kg Screenshot
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Post by wafflestoo on Nov 28, 2016 21:42:39 GMT
While Li seems to be the best as far as weight/cost for rotation wheels it's very difficult to get decent speed on low power turrets. So far the best I've found for <1 Mw designs is Magnesium. I've also got a nuke for you. 6.07 kt 6.26 kc 11.2 kg Screenshot
When I'm under 30 kW on the rails I usually just say f*it and go with lead. At low-power / low-revolutions you seem to get better tracking for the power with high-mass wheels... of course your turret assembly mass goes through the roof at that point but c'est la vie.
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Post by tessfield on Nov 29, 2016 17:14:11 GMT
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Post by zuthal on Nov 29, 2016 18:22:38 GMT
I have started cataloguing the critical intensities (laser intensity above which more intensity in a single laser results in no more increase in ablation rate) and maximum ablation rates of various materials, under the assumption that the game ignores heat of vaporisation/decomposition (which seems reasonable, as they would likely be otherwise noted for armour materials) and that it has 0 K as the ambient temperature. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e_DPOISz5ibFHV0d7khJXA_NV-OssKRC83x5Et1D918/edit?usp=sharing
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Post by tessfield on Nov 29, 2016 22:15:01 GMT
I have started cataloguing the critical intensities (laser intensity above which more intensity in a single laser results in no more increase in ablation rate) and maximum ablation rates of various materials, under the assumption that the game ignores heat of vaporisation/decomposition (which seems reasonable, as they would likely be otherwise noted for armour materials) and that it has 0 K as the ambient temperature. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e_DPOISz5ibFHV0d7khJXA_NV-OssKRC83x5Et1D918/edit?usp=sharingHeya! That's awesome!! Very useful! I'm trying to think here, but it'd be pretty cool if we could figure out a material ablation rate per MW per s. It's killing my brain and my notebook trying to figure out how to calculate this xD Material Ablation Rate [cm/s] per Laser Power [MW/m 2] for Amorphous Carbon: Ablation Rate per W Amorphous Carbon = ( 8.333... / 1,397.655 ) * ( cm/s / MW/m 2 ) Ablation Rate per W Amorphous Carbon = 0.005962129424 * ( m / 100 s ) * ( m 2 / 1,000 * J / s ) => m 3 / 100,000 s * ( J / s ) => m 3 / 100,000 s * ( J / s ) Ablation Rate per W Amorphous Carbon = 0.005962129424 / 100,000 m 3 / J Ablation Rate per W Amorphous Carbon = 5.9621294 x 10 -8 m 3 / J Apparently? I haven't had physics in several years so I've no idea Given this value it should be possible to extrapolate ablation rates on different laser intensities, which I'm going to test now
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Post by zuthal on Nov 30, 2016 0:08:24 GMT
Well, you'd interpolate linearly between the no laser limit (0 MW/m^2, 0 cm/s) and the critical rate (x MW/m^2, y cm/s), so that then the total formula for the ablation rate would be A(I)=(Acrit/Icrit)*I, where A(I) is the ablation rate at a certain intensity, I is the applied intensity, Icrit is the critical intensity and Acrit is the critical ablation rate.
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Post by tessfield on Nov 30, 2016 2:17:03 GMT
zuthal, haven't been able to give this a deeeep test yet in-game, but is it really linear? I tried the following with 7 100MW stock laser on a missile with amorphous carbon armor at 1m separation, only the head plate (ie Start: 99%) and varying the thickness. I got these results: Missile dV Missile Acc Armor Thickness Missile Duration Under Fire Average Durability per cm of armor 5.03km/s 13.7g 01cm 05.85s / 10 tries ( 0.585s ) 01 cm = 0.585s 4.38km/s 12.5g 05cm 17.89s / 10 tries ( 1.789s ) 05 cm = 0.358s 5.55km/s 14.4g 10cm 42.69s / 10 tries ( 4.269s ) 10 cm = 0.426s
This prolly has a huge error margin and 10 tests is not enough but that's all I've managed to do today My apologies if I'm disrupting you on the sheet I got excited and wanted to try that out
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Post by newageofpower on Dec 1, 2016 3:32:12 GMT
Are there any "standard" large nukes (over 100MT) yet? EDIT: Here is my offering; an almost straight up upgrade for the Tessfield 1.6 MT device; 12 KG extra mass for an hair raising 390 megajoules of energy. Cost is increased by 2,000 credits.
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Post by amimai on Dec 1, 2016 13:32:02 GMT
btw on reactors: this is data based on real designs based on this reactor i.imgur.com/7dVFg1R.png?1temp
| reactor mass
| hull cross section
| heat signature
| reactor cost
| total mass
| total area
| total cost
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| 2700
| 252.6%
| 346.5%
| 194.3%
| 334.6%
| 168.5%
| 136.6%
| 214.5%
| HV2700
| 293.4%
| 219.8%
| 163.0%
| 240.8%
| 169.8%
| 114.4%
| 162.8%
| 2600
| 158.8%
| 170.3%
| 134.2%
| 173.3%
| 120.1%
| 109.6%
| 131.3%
| HV2600
| 205.4%
| 127.9%
| 122.0%
| 148.6%
| 130.4%
| 99.6%
| 115.5%
| 2500
| 117.2%
| 104.3%
| 105.0%
| 111.9%
| 100.0%
| 100.0%
| 100.0%
| 2400
| 100.0%
| 100.0%
| 100.0%
| 100.0%
| 101.3%
| 112.3%
| 101.3%
| 2300
| 71.7%
| 103.6%
| 96.7%
| 98.5%
| 101.1%
| 128.5%
| 109.1%
| 2200
| 69.5%
| 100.7%
| 93.3%
| 93.3%
| 111.8%
| 147.9%
| 117.0%
| 2100
| 56.6%
| 103.6%
| 90.0%
| 95.2%
| 121.9%
| 172.6%
| 130.6%
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side notes on reactor designs : - lower power reactors are more efficient, 2x1GW will be in all ways better then 1x2GW with the exception of crew cost - higher neutron flux is better for radiation, mass and size - adjusting moderator allows for higher neutron flux edit: for designs over 2500k it is possible to make "heavy" reactors maximising power/heat at the cost of weight, added to data set (notably HV2600 reactors are marginally better then 2500 for radiator area)
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