|
|
Post by Kerr on Jan 30, 2018 18:42:46 GMT
My quest for laser removal advances again. I can now beat a Deep Fryer with a single 92 kc drone, although I could probably get the cost ratio down radically from there. Still 27:1 is already quite decent, and right now the drone will likely do very well against conventional capships too. I switched my railguns to fire 6-gram frag payloads instead of solid slugs, which instantly gives me roughly tripled muzzle velocity. A 15 km/s railgun and a 15 km/s dv gives the laserstar 30 seconds to live until the frag warheads start raining down on it. Additionally, since the drone's front is covered in anti-laser armor and the railgun has 11 cm of Polyethane on its barrel, it could very likely survive all the way to a 100 km intercept, giving the target laserstar only 3 seconds of dodging time. I'd say this is the best way to get rid of any laserstar design I've met. Designs for drone and railgun below: Combat test: Orbital intercept. Note the speed of the intercept. 90 minutes to reach target around 40 Mm out. You can stop telling me to put MPDs on every single thing ever now.  Start of combat at 1 Mm. Both the deep fryer and my drone start firing immediately, since my railgun will only take 30 seconds to reach the laserstar.  Rounds underway to the laserstar. It has switched targets to the tiny bullets now, but can't get good hits thanks to laser wobble. A low-intensity small aperture point-defence laser might be able to deal with this kind of attack though? Although the rounds do have 3mm PE armor, so it might be difficult to get through quickly enough.  30 seconds later the deep fryer is dead with 0 damage to my drone. It did manage to shoot down a few of the frags but there's far too many to stop them all.  Have you tried testing it against a Deep Fryer equipped with a "laser sight" ? |
|
|
|
Post by jtyotjotjipaefvj on Jan 30, 2018 23:34:03 GMT
Have you tried testing it against a Deep Fryer equipped with a "laser sight" ? Turns out my previous claims about the drone making it to 100 km were complete horseshit. The 4 cm PE plate only lasted for about 5 seconds at 1 Mm. I assumed it wasn't getting hit due to sensor wobble, but actually it was due to the lasers focusing solely on the bullets fired by the railgun. I fixed that by swapping to a 1.2 meter thick PE plate, which allows the drone to make it to 500 or so km before the plate melts. This change brings the cost up to 205 kc, which is still pretty decent. I could probably make it cheaper by making the hull, as well as the armor plate, narrower. You could probably get around 50% off the cost by doing that, but I can't be arsed to do it right now. For the 10 Mm test, I plot a high-speed intercept and start the long glide to close in from 10 Mm. I had to add a toy gun that I use to get the enemy laser firing at 10 Mm, since the max range is set at 1 Mm. Firing one round makes the AI ignore range since it's getting fired at, which fixes this issue. After firing the one round, which has a fuse that makes it blow up to prevent the laser from targeting it, I do nothing for the next 8 or so minutes while the drone closes down to 3 Mm, at which point I open fire. Since I know my ship can make it roughly to 500 km without getting fried, I need to start shooting a good bit before that to make sure the laserstar will be facing a steady stream of fragments long before that, forcing it to either dodge and let me close even further, or get killed. If the thing had a NTR it could probably dodge my fire until the anti-laser plate was cooked, but now it's just a sitting duck. Images of the new design and combat test below: New design with more armor and droptanks.  Start of combat. Intercept was fairly tight, with a few mm/s leftover dv and a less than 1 m/s perpendicular velocity.  Manually starting the laser since the AI doesn't do it automatically.  Several minutes of uneventful gliding later, my drone opens fire at 3 Mm.  Around two minutes later, the first round lands and takes out most of the lasers.  The second round hits and takes out everything else.  I would try seeing how close I can get before opening fire, but waiting ten minutes per attempt is not really my thing. Here's the design if you want to have a go: dl.dropbox.com/s/ngtjvczvvk0vlz9/jtyot%20MASTER%20BLASTER%203000.txt?dl=0 |
|
|
|
Post by koganusan on Feb 8, 2018 12:30:44 GMT
I've been fooling around with exploiting the current missile guidance. Missiles currently appear to target the center of the available heat signatures on a particular ship, with the position for the radiators being calculated from the base of the radiator. Generally, that's not bad, since radiators are important and tend to live near important things. However, with some unconventional design, it is possible to make sure there isn't anything to hit at the point they aim at. As a proof of concept, I built a ship in the form of a ring hundreds of meters across with a few engines and armored fuel tanks spread throughout, a crew module and remote control on one side, a reactor on the other, and a pair of radiators opposite each other. I also tried armoring the crew module, adding an armored "shade" for it to protect against nuke radiation, and giving it a tiny, thickly armored cone in the very front to try to trigger nukes in front of it instead of in the center, but I only kept the last one because the other two didn't seem to help. The resulting ship will tank as many stock missiles as you care to throw at it. It outright ignores flack missiles, and a siloship will run out of missiles before doing significant damage. I suspect it should be similarly resilient against most player missiles that are accurate enough to hit where they are aiming and not equipped with any fancy sub-munitions. Unfortunately, the crew immediately get fried by the first decent sized nuke no matter how well I try to shield them, but the drone core keeps right on going until the other side runs out of missiles.  This is mostly just a proof of concept, but if this were to be treated as a feature rather than a bug it might have applications in, for example, laser stars that are more resistant to micro-missile swarms. It has the downside of making it much harder to armor things and being quite cheaty, but a more conventional ship with two groups of radiators 90 degrees to each other and offset far away from the hull might have some of the same advantages. |
|
|
|
Post by koganusan on Feb 8, 2018 23:58:39 GMT
I went ahead and built this monstrosity to see if I can benefit from the guidance's assumptions while still having real armor. Unfortunately, the game crashes if I try to actually load it in the sandbox. Versions with most of the armor stripped off sometimes load, but don't work as well as the hollow ring ship did and are incredibly laggy for some reason.  |
|
|
|
Post by dragonkid11 on Mar 9, 2018 3:01:00 GMT
Inspired by AtomHeartDragon, I have decided to take my hand in making some specialized microdrones armed with cannon and blast launcher. Introducing, the Trooper class.  Besides having a 1 gram conventional cannon, it also has blast launcher capable of launching 36 50 gram fragmentation round and 1000 1 gram kinetic storm in less than a second.  With side thrusters, it can also correct its orientation rapidly and thus ensuring accuracy for the internal gun. ...Or it should be as it said on paper. In reality the correction system works so well, it ran out of ammo before reaching launching range... And the computer basically crashed because I forgot it doesn't like this many projectile being launched at once... I should try to go for lesser projectile count and not literally a thousand of them next time. EDIT:  Yup, tried out smaller payload count on these microdrones and the effectiveness is increased quite dramatically. And since they are designed as one shot drones, just go for extremely high speed interception and you will get dead capital ships really fast. |
|
|
|
Post by AtomHeartDragon on Mar 9, 2018 20:51:03 GMT
I went ahead and built this monstrosity to see if I can benefit from the guidance's assumptions while still having real armor. Unfortunately, the game crashes if I try to actually load it in the sandbox. This might be relevant: childrenofadeadearth.boards.net/thread/3133/designs-central-stack-crash-gameAlthough I would consider this kind of missile immunity a pretty hefty exploit. Inspired by AtomHeartDragon, I have decided to take my hand in making some specialized microdrones armed with cannon and blast launcher. Introducing, the Trooper class. Besides having a 1 gram conventional cannon, it also has blast launcher capable of launching 36 50 gram fragmentation round and 1000 1 gram kinetic storm in less than a second. With side thrusters, it can also correct its orientation rapidly and thus ensuring accuracy for the internal gun. ...Or it should be as it said on paper. In reality the correction system works so well, it ran out of ammo before reaching launching range... And the computer basically crashed because I forgot it doesn't like this many projectile being launched at once... I should try to go for lesser projectile count and not literally a thousand of them next time. EDIT: Yup, tried out smaller payload count on these microdrones and the effectiveness is increased quite dramatically. And since they are designed as one shot drones, just go for extremely high speed interception and you will get dead capital ships really fast. Neat, seems easily interchangeable with some of my blast/gun launched payloads too. Have you tried tuning the blast launchers to match gun's exit velocity and firing (possibly with some launch cap for multiple, less CPU demolishing salvoes) just after reaching gun firing range? I usually slave direct fire blast launchers to a fixed gun. |
|
|
|
Post by dragonkid11 on Mar 10, 2018 0:55:18 GMT
Inspired by AtomHeartDragon, I have decided to take my hand in making some specialized microdrones armed with cannon and blast launcher. Introducing, the Trooper class. Besides having a 1 gram conventional cannon, it also has blast launcher capable of launching 36 50 gram fragmentation round and 1000 1 gram kinetic storm in less than a second. With side thrusters, it can also correct its orientation rapidly and thus ensuring accuracy for the internal gun. ...Or it should be as it said on paper. In reality the correction system works so well, it ran out of ammo before reaching launching range... And the computer basically crashed because I forgot it doesn't like this many projectile being launched at once... I should try to go for lesser projectile count and not literally a thousand of them next time. EDIT: Yup, tried out smaller payload count on these microdrones and the effectiveness is increased quite dramatically. And since they are designed as one shot drones, just go for extremely high speed interception and you will get dead capital ships really fast. Neat, seems easily interchangeable with some of my blast/gun launched payloads too. Have you tried tuning the blast launchers to match gun's exit velocity and firing (possibly with some launch cap for multiple, less CPU demolishing salvoes) just after reaching gun firing range? I usually slave direct fire blast launchers to a fixed gun. Yeah that's exactly what I did, not all payload are going to hit for sure but with enough number, some will start wrecking the enemy ship maneuver system and the second salvo tends to end it if the first wave didn't already. |
|
|
|
Post by AtomHeartDragon on Mar 28, 2018 12:11:06 GMT
Crossposting from conventional gun challenge thread: Small (1kt), weak (1MW), stock modules only, cannons only, not optimized for any particular mission but can beat Vesta with 100% survival rate when supplemented with a bit of luck and skill (you can still expect around 80% without), after maxing out the mass budget (13 ships): Blueprints:
CraftBlueprint [DCA]Assault Gunboat [Core]
Modules
1.04 MW Thermoelectric Fission Reactor 1 2.5117 null 0 0
2x20 Titanium Carbide Radiator 4 15.961 1.04 MW Thermoelectric Fission Reactor 0.78 0
40 Crew Module 1 13.191 null 0 0
100 t Methane Tank 1 7.3473 null 0 0
6.19 km/s Methane Gimballed Nuclear Thermal Rocket 3 0.30854 null 1.57 0
10.0 t Methane Tank 8 13.187 null 0 0
8.00 m Diameter Polyethylene Radiation Shield 1 13.189 null 0 0
2.50 t Methane Tank 6 26.75 null 0 1
10.0 t Methane Tank 2 0.75585 null 0 0
2.50 t Methane Drop Tank 2 48.658 null 5.97 0
10.0 t Methane Drop Tank 4 40.277 null 0.78 0
2.50 t Methane Drop Tank 2 48.495 null 0.31 0
6x2 Silicon Dioxide Radiator 2 45.098 40 Crew Module 0 0
6x2 Silicon Dioxide Radiator 3 52.148 40 Crew Module 4.71 0
60mm Turreted Cannon 1 65.323 null 4.25 0
60mm Turreted Cannon 2 14.588 null 1.13 0
10.0 t Methane Tank 1 24.867 null 0 0
100 t Methane Drop Tank 2 35.827 null 0 0
10.0 t Methane Drop Tank 4 31.801 null 0.78 0
2.50 t Methane Drop Tank 2 48.586 null 0 0
2.50 t Methane Tank 18 16.115 null 0 2
2.50 t Methane Tank 8 10.393 null 0 4
2.50 t Methane Tank 12 10.28 null 0 6
2.50 t Methane Tank 12 10.33 null 0.26 7
33mm Internal Cannon 4 67.4 null 0.78 0
33mm Internal Cannon 3 67.53 null 3.14 5
7.00 m Diameter Polyethylene Radiation Shield 1 13.183 null 0 0
33mm Internal Cannon 3 67.536 null 0 3
60mm Turreted Cannon 2 34.045 null 2 0
Armor
Shape Hexagonal
Concave true
ArmorLayers
Para-Aramid Fiber 0.01 0 0.1 1 1 0
Boron Filament 0.01 0 0.19 1 1 0
Graphite Aerogel 0.45 0 0.075 1 1 0
Aluminum 0.003 0 0.19 1 1 0
Titanium Nitride 0.001 0 0.18 1 1 0
Diamond 0.001 0.01 0.55 1 1 0
Titanium Dioxide 0.0005 0.01 0.437 0.54 1 0
Graphite Aerogel 0.3 0 0.075 0.2 1 0
Liquid Crystal Polymer Fiber 0.005 0.01 0.075 0.2 1 0
Exterior: Internals: Rather unsafe and definitely not the highest point of my engineering, but does surprisingly well given limitations. We could really use a separate core design thread, BTW, or even two - one for pure core modules, the other for core-like designs sticking with at least some limitations of core ships - like relatively modest power budgets. |
|
|
|
Post by darthroach on Apr 6, 2018 21:25:12 GMT
Inspired by AtomHeartDragon, I have decided to take my hand in making some specialized microdrones armed with cannon and blast launcher. Introducing, the Trooper class.*snip* How well does this fare against fleets of 10Mm laserstars? I have been trying to design a good laserstar kill vehicle that doesn't break my PC on and off for ages now. Dv looks a bit low, and the front of the vessel is quite flat. |
|
|
|
Post by AtomHeartDragon on Apr 7, 2018 5:25:12 GMT
Eh, one more reason to make exploring and challenging the meta pointless: - Obvious counters give your computer unacceptable meltage warning and turn the game into a (very slow) slideshow.
- The game doesn't model aspects that would be critical to laserstars' practical performance (like mechanical strain on huge radiators while doing any kind of manoeuvres).
- The game doesn't allow the other kinds of obvious counters (simultaneous, multi-directional intercepts, slinging sand from behind local celestial body, simultaneously slinging sand from more than one direction, etc.)
- The game doesn't accurately model reactors and some other stuff that might be critical for cost and mass effective laserstars.
- In any realistic setting the meta-optimized vehicles alone won't cut it. For starters, if you have tensions without open hostilities and both sides want to put pressure on each other without actually starting shooting (a highly realistic scenario) you will quickly find out that laserstars suck badly at the game of chicken (because they need to commit early) and can have all their advantage removed by a cheeky move using some primitive conventional gunboats. Sometimes a handgun - or a thrown knife like in that (intentionally?) crappy Starship Troopers adaptation - beats nuke.
As for the dragonkid11 's design - I wouldn't expect it to be good against laserstars because flat nose full of explosives is flat and explosive. It still seems like a pretty cool tool for many reasonable applications, though.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rocket Witch on Apr 7, 2018 9:59:48 GMT
We could really use a separate core design thread, BTW, or even two - one for pure core modules, the other for core-like designs sticking with at least some limitations of core ships - like relatively modest power budgets. If you want it, feel free to start one! For starters, if you have tensions without open hostilities and both sides want to put pressure on each other without actually starting shooting (a highly realistic scenario) you will quickly find out that laserstars suck badly at the game of chicken (because they need to commit early) and can have all their advantage removed by a cheeky move using some primitive conventional gunboats. Aren't laserstars the antithesis of committal since they have practically infinite ammo, massive delta-V from MPDTs, and effective ranges potentially the size of Jupiter? With that mobility and control area I'd expect them to be very good at gunboat diplomacy. |
|
|
|
Post by AtomHeartDragon on Apr 7, 2018 10:56:09 GMT
We could really use a separate core design thread, BTW, or even two - one for pure core modules, the other for core-like designs sticking with at least some limitations of core ships - like relatively modest power budgets. If you want it, feel free to start one! Thanks, I will. I fully agree that they don't need to commit in terms of expending physical resources, but in terms of actually starting hostilities, they need to commit early in order to retain advantage - they won't turn on a dime against close targets, they won't survive fire exchange unless it starts at close to their maximum range and they might even be unable to track multiple distinct targets if they have already closed in. When both sides are aggressively posturing but have much to lose if things escalate, laser star will have its bluff called earlier. Do note that it requires sending in manned ships - melting some drones or an orbiting missile fleet doesn't have the necessary weight. Basically, when playing chicken it pays off to have your point of no return later than the other guy. Laserstars have it extremely early - they have immense range advantage but not much more, so they need to use it or lose it, and they can't call of the attack or make the other side dodge - if they start firing, the other side doesn't know until they are already hit (at which point so is the metaphorical fan). In game of chicken terms: with laser star you can't throw your steering wheel out of the window to make the other side swerve, because the other guy only sees it when you have already crashed into each other. |
|
|
|
Post by darthroach on Apr 8, 2018 0:03:47 GMT
Aren't laserstars the antithesis of committal since they have practically infinite ammo, massive delta-V from MPDTs, and effective ranges potentially the size of Jupiter? With that mobility and control area I'd expect them to be very good at gunboat diplomacy. Only because hardware limitations do not allow me to sling hundreds of thousands of tiny, well armoured missiles at them from lightseconds away. |
|
|
|
Post by Lerker on May 22, 2018 22:46:54 GMT
I did some thinking on lasers and how to armour against them and i was like if a laser can be focused with a lens would you not be able to use it to unfocues it? and yes that as armour? Just a thought.
p.s. and yes i know that this is not the place to post don't ban me
|
|
|
|
Post by jtyotjotjipaefvj on May 31, 2018 16:29:00 GMT
I made a 50 km/s, 1 gram railgun that doesn't use a payload. Now you can shoot down missiles or ships hundreds of kilometers away without having to melt your CPU in the process. It's also very cheap and light, costing and weighing about three times as much as an AE 50 km/s gun. It has tracers and the spread is nonexistent so now you can pretend you're shooting particle beams at enemies, which is always fun. Gun design:  blueprint: dl.dropbox.com/s/tg94mvxavumk571/100%20MW%2050%20km%20s%20gun.txt?dl=0More screenies spoilered below. Deep Fryer but railguns:  >visible lasers  straight from a hollywood production  |
|
