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Post by evilmcstalin on Oct 30, 2016 4:30:13 GMT
Hi all, Does anybody have a kinetic kill vehicle design that actually does what it's supposed to do (i.e., kill vehicles?). I have tried to design a few so far but they are, frankly, crap. The best I can do is slightly bruise the hull of an enemy ship. This is a Kinetic Kill prototype I made. It does *some* damage, but not that much. linkHere's a nuclear penetrator prototype I made. It's a 9 MT nuke topped off with two thin radiation shields. Again, some damage but not enough to justify the expense. linkIs there something I'm missing here?
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Post by cuddlefish on Oct 30, 2016 5:10:52 GMT
What sorts of ships are you bruising? 3 kilos of plastic and a remote control can pierce both sides of the stoutest vanilla kit, at least in my experience.
Having an example of the target defenses will help us figure this out.
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Post by ross128 on Oct 30, 2016 5:12:27 GMT
Well, even with 9Mt you shouldn't need such a thick penetrator to get the job done (my NEFPs originally used 100Mt warheads and ~2cm thick penetrators, back when we basically had pure fusion nukes). Thin it out to a couple centimeters, and make sure it's the same radius as your nuke or slightly larger to capture as much of the blast as possible, you're basically making an Orion drive that launches its pusher plate at the enemy. You also might want to try a 1Mt warhead instead, you should notice very little change in performance but a significant decrease in cost. Make sure your penetrator is Osmium or Tungsten, most other materials are likely to get vaporized.
Radiation shields can be formed into highly effective long-rod penetrators for inert KKVs. They'll punch through just about anything if you put enough velocity behind them, though of course their damage zone will be small.
One interesting catch I've discovered with radiator-based KKVs: if the missile runs out of dV before impact, the radiators won't count toward the hit for some reason. A radiator KKV needs to still have some fuel when it hits in order to work.
Also, for testing inert KKVs make sure your target has a laser to give you a bit of stand-off distance. Inert KKVs don't work very well if they don't have time to get up to speed, so you need enough room for a running start in order to see their peak performance. IRL of course this acceleration would take place long before "engagement range", but in-game that'll have to wait until we can reliably get high-speed intercepts that are on target.
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Post by redmars on Oct 30, 2016 5:23:42 GMT
The trick with long rod penetrators is that you need to actually hit something important -- it's very easy to make a 1kg tungsten rod go right through a ship, but the lethality is quite unreliable. I have tried a 'flechette missile' with a bundle of tungsten rods on a bed of explosive, but they're not much better without reliable fusing (though pretty devastating when they actually work). Putting a van-chrome-steel cap on the missile instead of a penetrator makes a dangerous weapon and goes through most armour about as reliably.
I've actually had the most luck with a bundle of conventional warhead 'rods' with low explosive content. They detonate right before impact, sending large tungsten fragments out in a cone.
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Post by evilmcstalin on Oct 30, 2016 6:04:32 GMT
Well, even with 9Mt you shouldn't need such a thick penetrator to get the job done (my NEFPs originally used 100Mt warheads and ~2cm thick penetrators, back when we basically had pure fusion nukes). Thin it out to a couple centimeters, and make sure it's the same radius as your nuke or slightly larger to capture as much of the blast as possible, you're basically making an Orion drive that launches its pusher plate at the enemy. You also might want to try a 1Mt warhead instead, you should notice very little change in performance but a significant decrease in cost. Make sure your penetrator is Osmium or Tungsten, most other materials are likely to get vaporized. Radiation shields can be formed into highly effective long-rod penetrators for inert KKVs. They'll punch through just about anything if you put enough velocity behind them, though of course their damage zone will be small. One interesting catch I've discovered with radiator-based KKVs: if the missile runs out of dV before impact, the radiators won't count toward the hit for some reason. A radiator KKV needs to still have some fuel when it hits in order to work. Also, for testing inert KKVs make sure your target has a laser to give you a bit of stand-off distance. Inert KKVs don't work very well if they don't have time to get up to speed, so you need enough room for a running start in order to see their peak performance. IRL of course this acceleration would take place long before "engagement range", but in-game that'll have to wait until we can reliably get high-speed intercepts that are on target. These are all great ideas. Thank you! One question though: do you think that detonation distance has an effect on a NEFP? Does it matter if it detonates on contact, vs. 1m or 100m, etc? I would imagine that the answer to this is a function of the nuke's output and the penetrator's dimensions, materials, etc. But, frankly, my higher education was in the humanities so the best I can do is understand how little I truly understand!
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Post by evilmcstalin on Oct 30, 2016 6:10:53 GMT
What sorts of ships are you bruising? 3 kilos of plastic and a remote control can pierce both sides of the stoutest vanilla kit, at least in my experience. Having an example of the target defenses will help us figure this out. I've been testing against vanilla ships but also against various whipple shields that have been suggested here on the forums. I feel like I'm doing something wrong with my designs, because it seems like others have more success with theirs?
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Post by dwwolf on Oct 30, 2016 15:55:47 GMT
With short engagement ranges at the start of an encounter you need very high accell to get em upto enough speed.
1.5 to 2 km/s and you start to see through and throughs on the stock ships.
Broadside targets generally get punctured near the Center of Heat generation.
Needleships tend to get hit perpendicular on the skin and a very few hits along the central axis. Ie...you get streaks on the ships sides.
The same goes for EFPs.
I get much better results with frag warheads vs needleships. You generally get detonations and impacts all along the targets length and thus tend to take out all the internals.
Ive tried to get better seperation of physical penetrators by explosives but that is hampered ( read : just about impossible ) by not being able to place explosives centrally in the core of a bundle of long rod rad shields.....enabling weapon like placement for them would be great.
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Post by redmars on Oct 30, 2016 16:52:08 GMT
Ive tried to get better seperation of physical penetrators by explosives but that is hampered ( read : just about impossible ) by not being able to place explosives centrally in the core of a bundle of long rod rad shields.....enabling weapon like placement for them would be great. This is why I resorted to making the rods themselves explosive. A stream of fragments from a close-range detonation, only slightly dispersed (I should have said that before, not 'large pieces' -- actually, I have no idea what the chunks themselves look like at impact) has a similar effect on Whipple shields to several small penetrators, though they don't overpenetrate as much. This is a good thing, since you want to spread the energy through the enemy ship once you've breached the armour. Playing with the explosive filler and detonation range settings can yield vastly different outcomes.
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Post by lawson on Oct 30, 2016 19:56:38 GMT
This missile has been working well for me. Tends to over-penetrate a lot but reliably gets reactor hits on stock ships. Usually use it with only 3-5Km/s intercepts so it hits more reliably. Attachment DeletedThe NTR design was backed off from maximum thrust to keep the missile (marginally) stable. The radiation shield between the engine and remote control keeps the missile alive longer after a laser kills the engine because missiles will do a full 180 if they're far enough off intercept. Could slot a pocket nuke under the remote control if you want more ragged impact holes. (Yup, a 57c micro nuke below the remote control is a massive lethality boost.)
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Post by cuddlefish on Oct 30, 2016 19:57:50 GMT
So far as vanilla targets, I've found that you actually do better for direct KKV action with no effort spent on warheads. Just make a light, fast rocket, some small plastic fuel tanks, slap a remote control on it and call it good. Very light and very cheap means you can store hundreds of the dang things without excessive impact on your launch platform's mass, and that means you can afford to send large waves - large waves means multiple hits, and that's what gets you lethality.
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Post by someusername6 on Oct 30, 2016 20:39:43 GMT
I have this design -- potentially the most interesting part is the engine. Not too sure about the armor to use here. Main thing going for it is that it is really cheap, and a good way of killing the delta-v of hostile ships that try to dodge all of them. The engine:
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aiyel
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by aiyel on Oct 30, 2016 20:48:17 GMT
Take a design that can sprint all the way out to just past 100km, however you wish to achieve this. Wrap it in a centimeter of silgel, and be done with it. Ideally you want impact velocities of above 5kps at max range. Your missile itself will make a decent kkv at those speeds with no need of a penetrator. Bonus points if there's still fuel in the tanks when you hit
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Post by coaxjack on Oct 30, 2016 21:21:22 GMT
I tried a few kinetics with teenyweeny little NTRs, and they got alarmingly high deltaV (~8.5 km/s) but 1000 credits a missile is a little steep. This thing on the other hand: imgur.com/4FHO65vCheap, light, and the launcher with full payload of 500 rounds only weighs about 5 tons. Edit: okay after editing this about 6 times, how do you do an embedded image?
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Post by someusername6 on Oct 30, 2016 22:55:52 GMT
Edit: okay after editing this about 6 times, how do you do an embedded image? Use the "Insert image..." button, or add something like this as a BBCode: [img style="max-width:100%;" alt="" src="https://i.imgur.com/RhGT3AE.jpg"]
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Post by someusername6 on Oct 30, 2016 23:29:38 GMT
Here's the code for my micro KKV, along with a carrier that spams the sky with them -- and action shot of a stock cutter cut in half, as well as plenty of dead missiles killed on the way to their target. CombustionRocketModule 4.95 km/s Fluorine Hydrogen Gimballed Combustion Rocket Reaction Fluorine Hydrogen StoichiometricMixtureRatio 1 ThermalRocket ChamberComposition Boron ThroatRadius_m 0.001 ChamberWallThickness_m 0.0002 ChamberContractionRatio 100 NozzleExpansionRatio 85 NozzleExpansionAngle_degrees 12 RegenerativeCooling_Percent 1 Injector Composition Lithium PumpRadius_m 0.027 RotationalSpeed_RPM 31 Gimbal InnerRadius_m 0.04 ArmorComposition Lithium ArmorThickness_m 0.0001 ReactionWheels Composition Polyethylene RotationalSpeed_RPM 64000 GimbalAngle_degrees 3
PropellantTankModule 100 g Hydrogen Tank 2 Propellant Hydrogen StructureComposition UHMWPE ReactionMass_kg 0.1 HeightToRadiusRatio 20 AdditionalArmorThickness_m 0
PropellantTankModule 1.90 kg Fluorine Tank 2 Propellant Fluorine StructureComposition UHMWPE ReactionMass_kg 1.9 HeightToRadiusRatio 20 AdditionalArmorThickness_m 0
CraftBlueprint Micro KKV Modules Remote Control 1 0.029266 null 0 4.95 km/s Fluorine Hydrogen Gimballed Combustion Rocket 1 0 null 0 100 g Hydrogen Tank 2 1 0 null 0 1.90 kg Fluorine Tank 2 1 0 null 0 10.0 cm x 0 m Spacer 1 1.1425 null 0 Armor ArmorLayers Graphite Aerogel 0.02 0 0 1 1
CarrierModule 75.0 kW Micro KKV Launcher Payload Micro KKV Launcher Stator Iron TrackLength_m 3.2 StatorDepth_m 0.51 Forcer Zirconium Copper ForcerRadius_m 0.0042 Coolant Water PowerConsumption_W 75000 CoolantTurbopump Composition Maraging Steel PumpRadius_m 0.26 RotationalSpeed_RPM 8 CoolantInletTemperature_K 1220 ArmorMaterial Titanium ArmorThickness_m 0.03 EngagementRange_km 10 TargetsShips true TargetsShots true
AmmoModule 5000x Micro KKV SuppliedModule 75.0 kW Micro KKV Launcher AmmoBay Capacity 5000 Stacks 5 ArmorComposition Boron ArmorThickness_m 0.005
NuclearThermalRocketModule 6.16 km/s Methane Gimballed Nuclear Thermal Rocket ReactorCoreHeight_m 0.7 NuclearReactor Coolant Methane Moderator Graphite ModeratorMass_kg 0 Fuel U-235 Dioxide FuelMass_kg 25.6 FuelEnrichment_Percent 0.89 ControlRodComposition U-233 Dioxide ControlRodMass_kg 23 NeutronReflector Graphite ReflectorThickness_m 0.594 AverageNeutronFlux__m2_s 1.4e+020 ThermalRocket ChamberComposition Maraging Steel ThroatRadius_m 0.45 ChamberWallThickness_m 0.0012 ChamberContractionRatio 1.1 NozzleExpansionRatio 70.1 NozzleExpansionAngle_degrees 15 RegenerativeCooling_Percent 0.448 Injector Composition Maraging Steel PumpRadius_m 0.37 RotationalSpeed_RPM 1000 Gimbal InnerRadius_m 1.12 ArmorComposition Titanium Nitride ArmorThickness_m 0.03 ReactionWheels Composition Silicon Nitride RotationalSpeed_RPM 10000 GimbalAngle_degrees 90
RadiatorModule 2x0.5 Amorphous Carbon Radiator Composition Amorphous Carbon PanelWidth_m 1 Height_m 0.5 Thickness_m 0.06 ArmorThickness_m 0.03 Panels 2 SurfaceFinish null
ThermoelectricFissionReactorModule 365 kW Thermoelectric Fission Reactor 2 ReactorCoreDimensions_m 0.1 0.1 NuclearReactor Coolant Sodium Moderator Graphite ModeratorMass_kg 1 Fuel U-235 Dioxide FuelMass_kg 1 FuelEnrichment_Percent 0.97 ControlRodComposition Boron Nitride ControlRodMass_kg 1 NeutronReflector Boron Nitride ReflectorThickness_m 0.421 AverageNeutronFlux__m2_s 6.8e+017 InnerTurbopump Composition Amorphous Carbon PumpRadius_m 0.1 RotationalSpeed_RPM 110 ThermocoupleInnerDimensions_m 0.1 0.1 Thermocouple PTypeComposition Tantalum NTypeComposition Tungsten Length_m 0.001 ThermocoupleExitTemperature_K 2400 OuterCoolant Sodium OuterTurbopump Composition Lithium PumpRadius_m 0.1 RotationalSpeed_RPM 98
CraftBlueprint Micro KKV Carrier Modules 6.16 km/s Methane Gimballed Nuclear Thermal Rocket 1 0.11843 null 0 365 kW Thermoelectric Fission Reactor 2 2 -0.39271 null 0 Armored 1.000 kt Methane Tank 1 0.21457 null 0 7.00 m Diameter 10.0 cm Radiation Shield 1 44.495 null 0 40 Crew Module 1 53.219 null 0 10.0 m x 0 m Spacer 1 70.67 null 0 2x0.5 Amorphous Carbon Radiator 3 2.0469 365 kW Thermoelectric Fission Reactor 2 1.05 6x5 Aluminum Radiator 3 16.082 40 Crew Module 1.04 75.0 kW Micro KKV Launcher 9 64.513 null 0 2x0.5 Amorphous Carbon Radiator 3 10.4 75.0 kW Micro KKV Launcher 1.05 5000x Micro KKV 1 64.513 null 0 5000x Micro KKV 1 65.513 null 0 5000x Micro KKV 1 66.513 null 0 Armor ArmorLayers Boron Carbide 0.02 0 0 1 1 Graphite Aerogel 0.36 0 0 1 1 Nickel Phosphorus Microlattice 0.01 0 0 1 1
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