aiyel
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by aiyel on Oct 5, 2016 20:54:55 GMT
Yeah, by this point I think it's pretty obvious that solely using reaction wheels for turret gimballing gives more restriction than benefit.
We need more and better options, including for rocket gimballing, but especially for weapon turrets.
First off, I'd like a gun that has 360 degree traverse with the true limiter being elevation. Also, multiple weapons sharing the same gun housing would be nice. Consider the advantages: The Otobreda Melara 76mm naval gun mounts a single barrel, revolver-style breech. It has an elevation limit of -15 to +85 degrees, and fighting against gravity has an elevation speed of 35 degrees a second.
One could place two of these symmetrically and both could fire into both broadsides and off the nose of the ship. Modern style gunhouses are also somewhat more practical to armor for combat, too, as, much like a tank gun, the side facing the enemy will be the most heavily armored.
They also don't require hundreds of megawatts to turn effectively.
So, modern turret housings and mechanically articulated turrets are pretty much a must.
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Post by morrigi on Oct 5, 2016 23:38:26 GMT
Yeah, the reason we are forced to use reaction wheels is mystifying and completely unrealistic.
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Post by ross128 on Oct 5, 2016 23:54:44 GMT
It's definitely a problem that reaction wheels scale poorly, especially since our ships are more than large enough to provide all the reaction mass our turrets could ever need. Having reaction wheels remain an option is useful of course, we do need them for drones and missiles (which lack a multi-kiloton hull for reaction mass), but full-sized ships should be using gearboxes.
Sphere turrets definitely have a strong plus side to them though: when evenly distributed around a cylinder, they are completely rotation-agnostic. Because they can all aim straight up, it's easy to quickly achieve coverage about the whole cylinder. Basically, the only restriction on a sphere turret's firing arc is when the barrel hits the hull.
The main advantage of pillbox turrets would be that you can achieve a better depression angle (here defined as "pitching toward the hull") by making the box taller, without having to change any other dimensions. So you can achieve a bigger firing arc for a smaller gain in mass.
Though a rather simple way to achieve both advantages would be to just stick the sphere on top of a tower...
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Post by RA2lover on Oct 6, 2016 1:04:08 GMT
What about offset bore designs? This seems like a much better way to achieve 6+ steradian coverage. Want to get to the other side without losing track of the target? just roll the turret 180 degrees during traverse!
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Post by qswitched on Oct 6, 2016 2:01:47 GMT
Electric motors for turrets rather than momentum wheels are a commonly requested feature, and I'll be adding them at some point in the future.
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Post by argonbalt on Oct 6, 2016 3:10:09 GMT
I think the addition of strut capable turrets would be great. Placing elements of a ship outside the armour allows for far better spheres of attack, ideally.
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Post by JagerIV on Oct 6, 2016 23:57:39 GMT
Well, let's look at a series of potential things the player could do, so we can narrow down what's potentially necessary and several solutions.
1: Motors: I assume we have somewhat "black box" motors as is which turn the momentum wheels. So the question would be, how much player decision is necessary here? Here are some of the options.
a) Player inputs Turret radius and power, and that spits out a rotation per second number. The player doesn't mess around with the materials of the rotating mechanism or motors at all. The computer just assigns some value for the black box that x amount of horsepower/watts requires y amount of additional mass in motors and support.
In this case, any turret would actually need two inputs of radius and power: one for the main transverse ring and motors, and a second motor and ring for the elevation.
This could bring up a second issue of how many degrees of moment the gun has in either direction. Mostly useful for the gun elevation, but could be important for others.
b) We actually include a motor creation tool, so your horsepower to turn is something actually calculated as a real machine, and not a black box. Not sure this would be a good option, but its an option.
2: Turret dimensions. If we move away from sheres, we now have length, width, and height to consider. This has two major options
a) The turret grows to fit the turret payload: Basically, you figure out how wide of a turret ring you want (which decides most of the width and height) and the amount of elevation you want the gun to have, and the program will give you a turret housing just large enough to hold the payload.
b) The player is given control over setting the dimensions of the turret housing, at least setting the length, height, and width. The player is then responsible for figuring out how to fit the equipment in the turret house.
This is potentially much more frustrating, but it will allow more options: for instance, once could actually decide whether they want the ammo stored in the hull, or they want to try and store them in the turret like some tanks. One can try to make the front more flat or pointy, wide or thin. do they want the turret ring to be the maximum diameter, or have the turret extend a good deal past that?
3: Armor. I think it would be nice to have a similar amount of freedom in creating armor as we have in ship creation. This could actually create an interesting change in some of the meta: on some ships the ship turret might be the single most armored point on the ship, rather than weak spots to blow a hole through the rest of the armor.
This, combined with b, could produce a potentially very deep rabbit hole to go down, and may add way too much complexity. I don't know. Finally,
4: Gun number: it has to be decided if 1 gun should be stuck with, or if you could put multiple guns in one. It would be especially interesting if you could put multiple different kinds of guns, such as a co-axial or a light point defence gun on the roof of a bigger gun.
So, these are just some things on turret design from a game design persective I could think of. I'm sure there's a hundred more.
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Post by tukuro on Oct 7, 2016 0:10:55 GMT
With that many choices, I'd be all for making them separate modules. I also don't think "complexity" is a problem if the goal is to simulate space warfare as accurately as possible.
I also hope that in the future we'll be able to armour barrels and build retractable turrets.
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Post by Crazy Tom on Oct 7, 2016 1:03:19 GMT
I think turrets can be modules to themselves, rather like how we currently have launcher modules for missiles.
You pick a 'payload', in the case of the turret it would be a laser, coil gun, rail gun or chem gun.
Then you pick actuator type: electro-mechanical, pneumatic, or hydraulic. Electro-mechanical systems are the simplest: an electric motor drives a gear attached to the turret along your desired axis. It's lightweight, but it rapidly loses effectiveness as the mass of the payload increases and the torques needed get out of hand. Pneumatic systems use a pneumatically driven rack and pinion to drive the turret gear. They can generate more torque per input power, but they need a compressor - which means you use either an electric motor to drive it, or you have to divert some of your rocket's exhaust gasses. Hydraulic is just a beefier pneumatic system, that needs more power and can drive the big anti-ship turrets. I'm not an expert on any of these systems, so maybe you don't need all three, but I thought I'd put it out there.
Finally there's an armoring section, identical to the ship one where you can design armor layers to cover it all up.
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Post by apophys on Oct 7, 2016 6:58:36 GMT
I think turrets can be modules to themselves, rather like how we currently have launcher modules for missiles. You pick a 'payload', in the case of the turret it would be a laser, coil gun, rail gun or chem gun. Then you pick actuator type: electro-mechanical, pneumatic, or hydraulic. Electro-mechanical systems are the simplest: an electric motor drives a gear attached to the turret along your desired axis. It's lightweight, but it rapidly loses effectiveness as the mass of the payload increases and the torques needed get out of hand. Pneumatic systems use a pneumatically driven rack and pinion to drive the turret gear. They can generate more torque per input power, but they need a compressor - which means you use either an electric motor to drive it, or you have to divert some of your rocket's exhaust gasses. Hydraulic is just a beefier pneumatic system, that needs more power and can drive the big anti-ship turrets. I'm not an expert on any of these systems, so maybe you don't need all three, but I thought I'd put it out there. Finally there's an armoring section, identical to the ship one where you can design armor layers to cover it all up. I think pneumatic and hydraulic can be combined, and we can pick the working fluid from a short list. Add reaction wheels as an actuator option; this system should replace the current forced wheels, but they should remain a possibility. Payloads should be diversified to also include any thrusters. We can deal with the structural effects of recoil and other forces with one option for part thickness. The same option would alternately allow us to customize our reaction wheels if we choose those (their radius can be free to snap to the maximum possible, I just want to be able to disconnect wheel mass from turret size). I also would like an option to stick it out from the hull by X distance, for the nice battleship look (thus being able to point all guns on the entire ship directly forward). This would also increase our available angle of fire downward toward the hull, so we can have more than a hemisphere of coverage if we desire. If sticking it out really far, the connecting bit should be the radius of the turret ring (which we choose).
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Post by jageriv on Oct 8, 2016 2:47:46 GMT
With that many choices, I'd be all for making them separate modules. I also don't think "complexity" is a problem if the goal is to simulate space warfare as accurately as possible. I also hope that in the future we'll be able to armour barrels and build retractable turrets. Well, the problem is "complexity" has a whole bunch of knock-on effects, on playability, functionality, implementation time, and even realism: the more options you give the player can in some cases decrease accuracy, as it creates more oportunities to push the model past the kind of things it is designed to handle and break it, or various assumptions come together in an unrealistic way, like our 150,000% efficiency rail guns. Or an option opens up the ability to do something without having to take in realistic issues. There's an endless rabbit hole you can go down on turret design: as someone who play's war Thunder tanks, I've seen many of the minute ways you can vary design and how much impact that can have. And War Thunder Tanks is still a pretty simple model of a real tank's turret. While there is certainly a huge amount of detail you can go into, it's not necessarily wise to do so: Keep it Simple Stupid still applies here. You want to do just enough, and not more.
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Post by captinjoehenry on Oct 11, 2016 18:27:10 GMT
Well I mean as it is just a turret it would be fairly simple to deal with. it's just a collection of armor and a drive system at x power which will move the turret at y speed. And as the turrets will need to have a full cone of orientation there's going to be pretty much no fancy turret shapes and if you just take the current armor system apply it to a sphere and chose a drive system and a weapon to mount in the sphere you now have a turret! It is honestly not that complex at all compared to the math needed for railguns and lasers and everything else.
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