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Post by bluuetechnic on Nov 10, 2016 23:55:52 GMT
my designs have a pointy nose because I want to send that pointy nose into the enemies hull as fast as 123 tones of TNT can get said pointy nose going which is really really fast if you didn't already know... simply put pointy nose : more armour mass in front of nuke going in the direction your target is, I have seen these nukes get through 50cm of armour on occasions. I have tested with flat nose and no nuke, both cases showed no effect on said 50cm armour Well the problem is that I think the shape of a pointy nose cone isn't as effective at concentrating the energy into the penetrator. If I had to guess, more of the mass would be blasted outwards at the angle of the nose cone rather than forwards towards the target. However, the differences between how EFPs work in real life and how the game simulates it may lead to different designs working better. Laser defense. Flat noses are easier for the laser to drill through. Using a radiation shield as your projectile will save weight while still getting good penetration, though a slightly smaller damage cross-section. The anti-laser armor on the outside still needs the pointed nose though. Technically EFP/HEAT should use an inverted cone with the explosive formed around it (the different behaviors seem to be driven by the angle and depth of the cone, though I'm sure there are other factors) but we can't do that with the current system, so we're limited to either flat plates or armored nose cones. Well if we're being honest, after the aerogel nerfs if a laser is trying to take down a missile, it will do so quickly regardless of whether or not the nosecone is angled. In any case, it's possible to make a flat plate for the penetrator from a radiation shield, and put a pointy nose cone on top to protect it. Also, has anyone figured out any remote control module settings that work well for NEFPs? |
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Post by amimai on Nov 11, 2016 0:19:55 GMT
Even so, with less than 1km/s dV in the missile you'd be better off just removing the engine and propellant to save weight.  ahh, but then what happens if I miss? im usually shooting coilgun versions at ranges of 100km+ |
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Post by dwwolf on Nov 11, 2016 8:53:50 GMT
my designs have a pointy nose because I want to send that pointy nose into the enemies hull as fast as 123 tones of TNT can get said pointy nose going which is really really fast if you didn't already know... simply put pointy nose : more armour mass in front of nuke going in the direction your target is, I have seen these nukes get through 50cm of armour on occasions. I have tested with flat nose and no nuke, both cases showed no effect on said 50cm armour Well the problem is that I think the shape of a pointy nose cone isn't as effective at concentrating the energy into the penetrator. If I had to guess, more of the mass would be blasted outwards at the angle of the nose cone rather than forwards towards the target. However, the differences between how EFPs work in real life and how the game simulates it may lead to different designs working better. Laser defense. Flat noses are easier for the laser to drill through. Using a radiation shield as your projectile will save weight while still getting good penetration, though a slightly smaller damage cross-section. The anti-laser armor on the outside still needs the pointed nose though. Technically EFP/HEAT should use an inverted cone with the explosive formed around it (the different behaviors seem to be driven by the angle and depth of the cone, though I'm sure there are other factors) but we can't do that with the current system, so we're limited to either flat plates or armored nose cones. Well if we're being honest, after the aerogel nerfs if a laser is trying to take down a missile, it will do so quickly regardless of whether or not the nosecone is angled. In any case, it's possible to make a flat plate for the penetrator from a radiation shield, and put a pointy nose cone on top to protect it. Also, has anyone figured out any remote control module settings that work well for NEFPs? Standard boostphase, limited to 25% fuel. Midcourse no changes. Final not the augmented guidance but the normal version. With 2.0 dampening. Ive cut down thrust to get efp missiles with ~10g accel. I have also limited gimbal engines to 4.5 - 5 degrees. And tried to bring CoG back to about midway in the missile with an iron ring armor bit over the engine. Detonator = 10m hard with 50m activation. Starting to get some hits again. Also starting to think our previous "EFPs" were KKV  |
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Post by amimai on Nov 11, 2016 12:52:02 GMT
As for them being KKV at least in my case they are not. Tested it without payload, the particular armour I use actually managed to totally resist 90% of the hits and the hits that were perfectly on target still crumpled on the armour and did not penetrate inside.
Yea my test vessel has some mean armour there...
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Post by dwwolf on Nov 11, 2016 14:42:17 GMT
I was mainly alluding to malfunctioning detonator code.
Im getting much less penetration with my micro EFPs with a 600 gram 10cm diameter copper disc.
So im really thinking it was the whole missile impacting and or exploding at 0 meters.
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Post by dragonkid11 on Nov 11, 2016 15:33:00 GMT
There's possible a lag or delay in detonation that is still too slow for it to work.
I guess trying to make the missile detonate at near point blank range is hard...
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Post by ross128 on Nov 11, 2016 15:33:12 GMT
My conventional octogen/copper EFPs have actually seen improved performance since the patch, I'm not entirely sure why. In general I've had very little trouble with detonators for conventional explosives and large nukes, for me it's only micronukes that tend to have a lot of duds (though a 20m hard detonation range has mostly fixed that).
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Post by amimai on Nov 11, 2016 21:52:52 GMT
I hear some delicate components like reactors being used in nuke EFPs. That got me thinking, complex components(like launchers reactors etc) in the game are either "destroyed" or they are not, if something can be launched in an EFP, the game probably still thinks it's intact. Maybe you could launch another nuke in an EFP. Would someone like to try this and see if it works? Basically you have two nukes, the one behind has small yield, but large activation range, while the one in front has high yield but smaller activation range. So might happen is the small nuke sees the enemy ship first, it fires and launches the large nuke ahead. The problem is the "ahead" part, for any design of this kind realy. On the final approach, the missile will not be oriented toward target most of the time. Unless if it is already on a perfect trajectory to target of course. I used something similar once with conventional bombs to interesting effect... I stacked thin disk frag charges of potassium in a missile and detonated them at 1km, had about 50% hit rate with this design at that range but it negated in strange ways where it would leave massive holes 10-20m diameter in thick armour or leave giant slashes across a ships hull as if they were hit by the sword of an angry god... also it was laggy as hell.   old missile : i.imgur.com/23eP4hA.png?2that is 25 stacks of 10x1kg shrapnel charges, and that ship was hit by the charges detonating at 1km range... there is no spread at all, the projectiles simply cut the target in half like some kind of laser but this may be an issue of the physics engine just giving up and making hissing noises because no-one expected you to put a stack of 20+ warheads one on pot of another and this: was done by a single missile with 40 stacks of 200x50g potassium charges (I have hence renamed the missiles "Claws of GOD" you can clearly see the "normal" dispersion pattern warping and that ate through 50cm of BGB-CD armour... that stuff is nigh impregnable if I was using single charges of 2000x50g it wouldn't even scratch the paint  through the process of miniaturisation and optimisation I have created this! it uses 60 stack of potassium(low fragmentation) 2x1kg frag charges and even a single missile on target is very well capable of cutting a ship in half. Detonate at 800m+ ranges, the closer it is the worse the effect, also expect lag, this thing causes it   |
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Post by themohawkninja on Nov 14, 2016 17:03:05 GMT
So, game mechanically speaking, what exactly is going on here/why do these work? Is the game actually simulating how the thin armor coating around the missile and other small components are getting vaporized when the nuke detonates, but a relatively large solid mass of say osmium would survive getting vaporized from the nuclear detonation and actually function either as a solid penetrator like in armor-piercing bullets, or the plasma jet in anti-armor RPG-7 rockets.
Or is this just a bug whereby the game isn't deleting the radiation shields when a nuke detonates?
I'm very curious to know why radiation-shield-based penetrator rounds in this game work.
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Post by themohawkninja on Nov 14, 2016 17:06:01 GMT
and this: was done by a single missile with 40 stacks of 200x50g potassium charges (I have hence renamed the missiles "Claws of GOD" you can clearly see the "normal" dispersion pattern warping and that ate through 50cm of BGB-CD armour... that stuff is nigh impregnable if I was using single charges of 2000x50g it wouldn't even scratch the paint I'm curious as to why you chose potassium as opposed to osmium for your flak. |
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Post by Durandal on Nov 14, 2016 17:08:58 GMT
Has anyone tried gun launching a payload that's just the EFP warhead with a flare at the end for fusing? Set the flare to detonate the warhead a second or two away from your ship to send the penetrator flying towards the enemy, basically a makeshift plasma cannon. For it to work the gun needs to fire directly at the target since the EFP warhead essentially acts as a laser with how impossibly fast the projectile is sent. Guns usually fire the projectiles in an arc so the payload might need a tiny engine and fuel tank that fires for a second or so to get the payload oriented on target. I tried it and couldn't hit anything after thousands of projecticles. My guess is that even with an engine the direction is not right. Small radial engines with a pure pusuit homing algorithm? |
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Post by concretedonkey on Nov 14, 2016 19:39:35 GMT
I tried it and couldn't hit anything after thousands of projecticles. My guess is that even with an engine the direction is not right. Small radial engines with a pure pusuit homing algorithm? It was a single gimballed engine with everything set on direct. |
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Post by Durandal on Nov 14, 2016 19:44:28 GMT
Small radial engines with a pure pusuit homing algorithm? It was a single gimballed engine with everything set on direct. Sorry I wasn't clear, I was making a suggestion. I've been having pretty good results using radial engines on my frontal armed capital ships by setting targetting to homing. It allows them to swing the guns around much quicker than the broadside command. Direct would be better in this case, of the NEFP slug does act like a laser. Personally I'm not sure if any of my NEFPs still work anymore. The best results I get a clean punch-through from the missile itself. I haven't found any evidence of "bullet" holes. |
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Post by concretedonkey on Nov 14, 2016 20:32:18 GMT
Oh , sorry. I'll try again when I have time.
NEFPs do work , but there is some kind of difference for sure. The whole thing was a bit esoterical in the first place, for a while I was convinced that what we were observing was actually internal detonations of nukes, not actual shooting mass from the explosion. Lately I'm getting better results with multilayered missile armor that can't really be explained with internal detonations.
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Post by dragonkid11 on Nov 15, 2016 23:13:53 GMT
Okay, it seems like that it's really hard to get EFP, NEFP or any kind of explosive propelled warhead.
I tried to not use the augmented propagation and switched to the normal one and increased the damping factor but the missiles just kept fumbling to its side at the last second.
Though I did managed to get some good hit from the missile at a much higher chance than using augmented propagation, but does anyone has better control module scheme for EFP missile?
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