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Post by mikeck on Nov 5, 2016 21:14:56 GMT
Just so I understand what this weapon is… Several weeks ago I asked about the inclusion of directed nuclear explosives. I knew that theoretically it was possible to direct an explosion similar to directed charge with the chemical explosive. Is that what you've done here? The metal is turned into a plasma penetrator and accelerated similar to what happens to copper in a HEAT round ( although I believe it still remains copper it's just molten)
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hal
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Post by hal on Nov 5, 2016 23:02:20 GMT
Just so I understand what this weapon is… Several weeks ago I asked about the inclusion of directed nuclear explosives. I knew that theoretically it was possible to direct an explosion similar to directed charge with the chemical explosive. Is that what you've done here? The metal is turned into a plasma penetrator and accelerated similar to what happens to copper in a HEAT round ( although I believe it still remains copper it's just molten) Essentially, yes. The (in this case nuclear) explosion is used to project a penetrator type device at high speeds and temperatures. It's slightly different than shaped charges like those used in HEAT rounds in that the shaped charge produces a 'jet' that is most effective at a specific distance, whereas EFPs are such that there is no 'ideal distance' (at least in space, where you don't have to worry about pesky things like air resistance). This means that ideally an EFP slug is molten (or even solid) and not gaseous/plasma, though odds are my design in the first post vaporizes the plate. Further testing on whether the nukes were actually detonating has been frustrating and inconclusive, though it suggests that many of the nukes are indeed not detonating properly (or at all). Attempts to use a single missile and manually detonating it before contact has resulted in either complete misses or failures to detonate before impact. There was one case where I think I got an ideal detonation of one warhead out of a string of about 6 or so missiles, which resulted in a much larger hole that goes clean through the target ship's armor. Entry: Attachment DeletedExit: Attachment DeletedAn attempt to look through the hole: Attachment DeletedEDIT: It's also of course possible that one of the warheads hit a weapon turret at the right angle, which would explain the perfectly round hole. Oops.
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Post by dwwolf on Nov 6, 2016 17:39:07 GMT
Arrrgghhhh ! Die myth,die ! EFPs and HEAT formed penetrators are NOT molten. ( except ,maybe, Nuke pumped EFPs ). What happens is that the intense pressure of the focussed explosion causes the metal to deform plastically. The then deformed projectile goes on its way as a nice solid. Well below the melting point.
EFPs trade penetration for longer standoff range and increased behind armor effects. Typical HEAT penetrators feature much higher penetration, at the cost of less damage and lower standoff range.
Since we are operating in a vacuum standoff range is not a problem ( no drag from air ), although penetrator speed does vary.
EFPs are propelled at around ~1.5 to 2 km/s. HEAT penetrators ~7 km/s.
/rant off.
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hal
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Post by hal on Nov 6, 2016 18:36:11 GMT
Arrrgghhhh ! Die myth,die ! EFPs and HEAT formed penetrators are NOT molten. ( except ,maybe, Nuke pumped EFPs ). What happens is that the intense pressure of the focussed explosion causes the metal to deform plastically. The then deformed projectile goes on its way as a nice solid. Well below the melting point. EFPs trade penetration for longer standoff range and increased behind armor effects. Typical HEAT penetrators feature much higher penetration, at the cost of less damage and lower standoff range. Since we are operating in a vacuum standoff range is not a problem ( no drag from air ), although penetrator speed does vary. EFPs are propelled at around ~1.5 to 2 km/s. HEAT penetrators ~7 km/s. /rant off. My mistake - thanks for the correction And to further clarify, EFPs achieve this by having (as I understand it) less of an angle and a thicker metal cone. Here's an image that shows various penetrator shapes for angles: Also, does this mean that HEAT round penetrators also have no standoff limits beyond 'will the target be able to avoid it'? If so that would suggest that my efforts to produce very long-range standoff devices would be better served with shape charge type penetrators (greater speed means greater distances before evasion becomes a problem), though as far as I know it's not possible to produce shaped charges in-game currently (no way to make an angled metal cone). Interesting.
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Post by bigbombr on Nov 6, 2016 18:57:01 GMT
Arrrgghhhh ! Die myth,die ! EFPs and HEAT formed penetrators are NOT molten. ( except ,maybe, Nuke pumped EFPs ). What happens is that the intense pressure of the focussed explosion causes the metal to deform plastically. The then deformed projectile goes on its way as a nice solid. Well below the melting point. EFPs trade penetration for longer standoff range and increased behind armor effects. Typical HEAT penetrators feature much higher penetration, at the cost of less damage and lower standoff range. Since we are operating in a vacuum standoff range is not a problem ( no drag from air ), although penetrator speed does vary. EFPs are propelled at around ~1.5 to 2 km/s. HEAT penetrators ~7 km/s. /rant off. My mistake - thanks for the correction And to further clarify, EFPs achieve this by having (as I understand it) less of an angle and a thicker metal cone. Here's an image that shows various penetrator shapes for angles: Also, does this mean that HEAT round penetrators also have no standoff limits beyond 'will the target be able to avoid it'? If so that would suggest that my efforts to produce very long-range standoff devices would be better served with shape charge type penetrators (greater speed means greater distances before evasion becomes a problem), though as far as I know it's not possible to produce shaped charges in-game currently (no way to make an angled metal cone). Interesting. Actually, HEAT projects the copper in a cone/jet due to superplasticity, and focuses this into a dense point. Beyont this 'focal point' however, the jet disperses (even without an atmosphere).
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hal
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Post by hal on Nov 9, 2016 4:07:51 GMT
Actually, HEAT projects the copper in a cone/jet due to superplasticity, and focuses this into a dense point. Beyont this 'focal point' however, the jet disperses (even without an atmosphere). Ah, I see. So, the latest update is pretty exciting news for EFP enthusiasts, as standoff distances can now be set for warheads. The new missile guidance update is also extremely promising, especially for potential long-standoff EFPs - the main thing is getting the missile to aim its nose directly at the target at the desired standoff distance and then detonating. I'm testing various standoff ranges for the original micromissile EFP design in the first post of this thread with the hope of replicating whatever distance detonation resulted in the fantastic damage as recorded 4 posts back. So far I've had my best results with an activation distancerange of 25 meters and a hard range of 5 meters, of which 6 missiles produced the results in the attached screenshots.
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Post by amimai on Nov 10, 2016 17:12:26 GMT
your EFP nukes are too fat... make them go on a diet! here is an EFP you can comfortable mount into a drone coil gun or mirv design... 1.5m detonation range. These things have monster penetration, depending on luck and volume of fire I have even penetrated 50cm boron/diamond composite armour with these (and it took less then 100 missiles to do it) conveniently because the warheads are so small you can lob swarms of these at the enemy and not worry about them nuking each other! or the 5kg version that is even nastier
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Post by dwwolf on Nov 10, 2016 19:52:03 GMT
What exactly is the penetrator that is supposed to be propelled by your explosives ?
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Post by pocok5 on Nov 10, 2016 20:35:08 GMT
What exactly is the penetrator that is supposed to be propelled by your explosives ? I think it might be the boron layers. My 2x2.4 Mt nukes tend to throw their armor layer around, splattering capital ships with molten steel fragments pretty far from the explosion.
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Post by bluuetechnic on Nov 10, 2016 22:24:32 GMT
Wait why do all of your designs have pointed nose cones? From my research, pretty much all EFPs use flat plates on the top
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Post by ross128 on Nov 10, 2016 23:19:54 GMT
Laser defense. Flat noses are easier for the laser to drill through.
Using a radiation shield as your projectile will save weight while still getting good penetration, though a slightly smaller damage cross-section. The anti-laser armor on the outside still needs the pointed nose though.
Technically EFP/HEAT should use an inverted cone with the explosive formed around it (the different behaviors seem to be driven by the angle and depth of the cone, though I'm sure there are other factors) but we can't do that with the current system, so we're limited to either flat plates or armored nose cones.
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Post by amimai on Nov 10, 2016 23:21:05 GMT
my designs have a pointy nose because I want to send that pointy nose into the enemies hull as fast as 123 tones of TNT can get said pointy nose going
which is really really fast if you didn't already know...
simply put pointy nose : more armour mass in front of nuke going in the direction your target is, I have seen these nukes get through 50cm of armour on occasions. I have tested with flat nose and no nuke, both cases showed no effect on said 50cm armour
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Post by ross128 on Nov 10, 2016 23:27:37 GMT
Honestly my main gripe with that design is it has no delta-V to speak of.
My current line of micromissiles weighs in around 10kg-12kg (the NEFP version being the high end, due to the nuke and plate weighing more than the other versions' 500g standard payload), they're about 75% fuel by mass so they can get around 6k-7k dV.
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Post by amimai on Nov 10, 2016 23:31:34 GMT
it has plenty of dV... its fired out of a coilgun at close to 7km/s said coilgun is mounted on a drone, and the drone can have as much dV as necessary the MIRV format is pretty useful for getting missiles where they need to go, efficient engine goes on the carry vehicle to get it where it needs to be, then you park into a good intercept orbit and start dropping nukes (or bring a coil gun and start shooting)
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Post by ross128 on Nov 10, 2016 23:34:31 GMT
Even so, with less than 1km/s dV in the missile you'd be better off just removing the engine and propellant to save weight.
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