Spaceships underpowered VS Ballistic Missile Submarine

sage
Senior Member

Posts: 294

Spaceships underpowered VS Ballistic Missile Submarine Jan 7, 2022 23:00:48 GMT

Quote

Post by sage on Jan 7, 2022 23:00:48 GMT

This question is about whether our spaceships are underpowered vs current Ballistic Missile submarines.

Here a list of Current Ballistic Missile submarines

Triomphant-Class submarine (French)

16 missiles
10 warheads per missile
150kt per warhead

Total 160 warheads at 150kt

Type 092(China)

12 missiles
250-500 kt per warhead

Total 12 warheads at 500kt

Type 094 (China)

12 missiles
1 Mt warheads per missile
or 1-3 MIRV 20/90/150kt per warhead

Total 12 warheads at 1Mt
or Total 36 warheads 150kt

Borei-class submarine (Russian)

16 missiles
6-10 warheads per missile
100-150 kt per warhead

total 160 warhead at 150kt

Typhoon-class submarine (Russian)

20 missiles
10 warheads per missile
100-200kt per warhead

total 200 warheads at 200kt

Delta-class submarine (Russian)

16 missiles
4 warheads per missile at 500kt
or 10 warheads per missile at 100kt

Total 64 warheads with 500kt
Total 160 warheads with 100kt

Vanguard-class submarine (United Kingdom)

16 missiles
8 warheads per missile
475kt per warhead

total 128 warheads with 475kt

Ohio-class Submarine (United States)

24 missiles
8 warheads per missile with 100kt old version
12 warheads per missile with 475kt new version

Total old: 192 warheads with 100 kt
Total new: 288 warheads with 475 kt

This is the list of nuclear missiles for stock spaceship form CoaDE

Siloship

6 missile launchers with 50 striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt
4 missile launchers with 10 Devastator nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.03 Mt

Total: 300 warheads with 2.45 kt and 40 warheads with 2.03Mt

Privateer

2 missile launchers with 25 sniper nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

Total: 50 warheads with 2.45 kt

Missile Schooner

2 missile launchers with 50 striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

Total: 100 warheads with 2.45 kt

Player designed ships

Belt Cruiser

8 missile launchers with 25 sniper nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

Total: 200 warheads with 2.45 kt

Basilisk Destroyer by DCA

1 missile launchers with 50 striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

Total: 50 warheads with 2.45 kt

Centaur-A Cutter by DCA

1 missile launchers with 50 striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

Total: 50 warheads with 2.45 kt

Centaur-B Cutter by DCA

1 missile launchers with 50 striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

Total: 50 warheads with 2.45 kt

Dragon-IV Gunship by DCA

2 missile launchers with 50 striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

Total: 100 warheads with 2.45 kt

Dragon-L Gunship by DCA

2 missile launchers with 50 striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

Total: 100 warheads with 2.45 kt

Dragon-V Gunship by DCA

2 missile launchers with 50 striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

Total: 100 warheads with 2.45 kt

Garuda Dreadnought by DCA

5 missile blast launchers with 15 missiles striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

5 missile launchers with 50 striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

Total: 325 warheads with 2.45 kt

Gryphon-E Frigate by DCA

2 missile launchers with 50 striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

Total: 100 warheads with 2.45 kt

Gryphon-E Frigate by DCA

2 missile launchers with 50 striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

Total: 100 warheads with 2.45 kt

Gryphon-E Frigate by DCA

2 missile launchers with 50 striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

Total: 100 warheads with 2.45 kt

Hydea Arsenal-Ship by DCA

3 missile blast launchers with 15 missiles striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt
6 missile launchers with 50 striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

5 missile launchers with 10 Devastator nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.03 Mt

Total: 345 warheads with 2.45 kt and 50 warheads with 2.03Mt

Leviathan Carrier by DCA

1 missile launchers with 50 staged striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

2 missile launchers with 50 striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

Total: 150 warheads with 2.45 kt

Valravn-A Corvette by DCA

3 missile launchers with 50 striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

Total: 150 warheads with 2.45 kt

Valravn-E Corvette by DCA

3 missile launchers with 50 striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

Total: 150 warheads with 2.45 kt

Last Edit: Jan 7, 2022 23:31:39 GMT by sage: too many returns

airc777
Senior Member

Posts: 408

Spaceships underpowered VS Ballistic Missile Submarine Jan 17, 2022 18:42:57 GMT

Quote

Post by airc777 on Jan 17, 2022 18:42:57 GMT

The intended targets and by extension the intended effect on them are different, as is the countermeasures the warheads delivery systems are trying to defeat. Trying to make a very big warhead go fast enough to outrun a very high output point defense laser is effectively impossible. Considering they're in CoaDE's context mostly used in ship to ship you might want to compare yields to anti-ship weapon systems. CoaDE's narrative still uses them for the narrative role of being the threat leveraged against civil targets to occupy them, but space habitats are still a target that's fundamentally different to terrestrial cities, infrastructure, and subterranean bunkers.

So I believe the apparent at least in terms of absolute yield answer is yes, but that a better question might be "why". Though even then absolute yield is still a question that warrants at least mentioning the output of the larger community made laser ships.

Last Edit: Jan 17, 2022 18:43:21 GMT by airc777

AtomHeartDragon
God

Posts: 1,257

Spaceships underpowered VS Ballistic Missile Submarine Jan 30, 2022 22:56:24 GMT gedzilla likes this

Quote

Post by AtomHeartDragon on Jan 30, 2022 22:56:24 GMT

Note that:
First, my published ships are as of now stock designs. That means they use stock weapons, including stock missiles and stock drones, and while all stock weapons aren't great, stock missiles and drones in particular are deeply underwhelming, so if I build a stock ship that isn't a dedicated siloship, basic optimization dictates only keeping enough stock missiles to open up tactical options, rather than as main source of firepower.

Second, missile/drone carrier ships are just less interesting to build because when used as intended they are just bundles of dV, thrust and payload.

My designs.
Roll thruster HOWTO.
Pointy spinal weapons HOWTO.

sage
Senior Member

Posts: 294

Spaceships underpowered VS Ballistic Missile Submarine Jan 31, 2022 4:15:48 GMT

Quote

Post by sage on Jan 31, 2022 4:15:48 GMT

Jan 17, 2022 18:42:57 GMT airc777 said:

The intended targets and by extension the intended effect on them are different, as is the countermeasures the warheads delivery systems are trying to defeat. Trying to make a very big warhead go fast enough to outrun a very high output point defense laser is effectively impossible. Considering they're in CoaDE's context mostly used in ship to ship you might want to compare yields to anti-ship weapon systems. CoaDE's narrative still uses them for the narrative role of being the threat leveraged against civil targets to occupy them, but space habitats are still a target that's fundamentally different to terrestrial cities, infrastructure, and subterranean bunkers.

So I believe the apparent at least in terms of absolute yield answer is yes, but that a better question might be "why". Though even then absolute yield is still a question that warrants at least mentioning the output of the larger community made laser ships.

You mean we should look at SSGN instead?

sage
Senior Member

Posts: 294

Spaceships underpowered VS Ballistic Missile Submarine Jan 31, 2022 6:47:03 GMT

Quote

Post by sage on Jan 31, 2022 6:47:03 GMT

Jan 30, 2022 22:56:24 GMT AtomHeartDragon said:

Note that:
First, my published ships are as of now stock designs. That means they use stock weapons, including stock missiles and stock drones, and while all stock weapons aren't great, stock missiles and drones in particular are deeply underwhelming, so if I build a stock ship that isn't a dedicated siloship, basic optimization dictates only keeping enough stock missiles to open up tactical options, rather than as main source of firepower.

Second, missile/drone carrier ships are just less interesting to build because when used as intended they are just bundles of dV, thrust and payload.

Yes, I should add play designed missiles so we can have a complete picture.

Player designed ships

Missile Cruiser

4 missile launchers with 50 Staged striker nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.45 kt

6 missile launchers with 10 Devastator nuclear missiles each and yields of 2.03 Mt

Total: 200 warheads with 2.45 kt and 60 warheads with 2.03Mt

Osprey Missile Frigate

4 missile launchers with 25 Flash Nuclear missiles each and yields of 255 t

2 missile launchers with 4 ammo drums total with 10 Devastator nuclear missiles each and yields of 5.07 Mt

Total: 100 warheads with 255 kt and 40 warheads with 5.07Mt

Your right if we move to design our missiles ourselves, they do look stronger. Only one Ballistic Missile Submarine had anything in the Mt range. But it odd, that I can't find any player designed ships that use 1 Kt to 1 Mt warheads.

airc777
Senior Member

Posts: 408

Spaceships underpowered VS Ballistic Missile Submarine Jan 31, 2022 15:11:44 GMT

Quote

Post by airc777 on Jan 31, 2022 15:11:44 GMT

Jan 31, 2022 4:15:48 GMT sage said:

You mean we should look at SSGN instead?

Perhaps more specifically the weapon systems then the platform, (AShM, SSM, ASM, and torpedoes instead of ICBM) but yes SSGN and also carriers, missile cruisers, perhaps anti-submarine warfare aircraft. Maybe even IJN Yamato's main guns just for fun, though the Kirov-Class battlecruiser is probably more relevant.

Most of the weapon systems that are meant to target ships have a conventional explosive yield of 1,000lbs or significantly less. You still have things like USA's Mark 45 torpedo and Mark 101 Lulu depth charge with their 11kt yield W34 warhead. The BGM-109 Tomahawk missile had a variable yield 5-150kt warhead that was retired in favor of 1,000lbs conventional explosive. Russia had several nuclear torpedoes between 10kt and 150kt. Russia's refitted K-329 Belgorod with it's "Status 6 Oceanic Multipurpose Weapon System" at 100mt is also notable, but it's really more of an anti-harbor weapon.

Looking at carriers briefly F-18s can carry B61's which have a variable yield of 0.3kt to 400kt and B83's which have a yield of 1.2mt, so a Nimitz with 90 aircraft and rearming could potentially carry a colossal yield, but that's not their primary armament.

Last Edit: Jan 31, 2022 15:12:21 GMT by airc777

sage
Senior Member

Posts: 294

Spaceships underpowered VS Ballistic Missile Submarine Feb 1, 2022 1:37:08 GMT

Quote

Post by sage on Feb 1, 2022 1:37:08 GMT

Jan 31, 2022 15:11:44 GMT airc777 said:

Jan 31, 2022 4:15:48 GMT sage said:

You mean we should look at SSGN instead?

Perhaps more specifically the weapon systems then the platform, (AShM, SSM, ASM, and torpedoes instead of ICBM) but yes SSGN and also carriers, missile cruisers, perhaps anti-submarine warfare aircraft. Maybe even IJN Yamato's main guns just for fun, though the Kirov-Class battlecruiser is probably more relevant.

Most of the weapon systems that are meant to target ships have a conventional explosive yield of 1,000lbs or significantly less. You still have things like USA's Mark 45 torpedo and Mark 101 Lulu depth charge with their 11kt yield W34 warhead. The BGM-109 Tomahawk missile had a variable yield 5-150kt warhead that was retired in favor of 1,000lbs conventional explosive. Russia had several nuclear torpedoes between 10kt and 150kt. Russia's refitted K-329 Belgorod with it's "Status 6 Oceanic Multipurpose Weapon System" at 100mt is also notable, but it's really more of an anti-harbor weapon.

Looking at carriers briefly F-18s can carry B61's which have a variable yield of 0.3kt to 400kt and B83's which have a yield of 1.2mt, so a Nimitz with 90 aircraft and rearming could potentially carry a colossal yield, but that's not their primary armament.

Then let's add in the SSGN then with nuclear warheads then.

Here a list of Current Cruise Missile submarines

Oscar-Class Submarine

24 P-700 Granit with 500 kt warhead

and let's say
28 RPK-7 with 200kt warhead (and yes, I know that it can't carry all it missiles as PRK-7, but the is no listing that shows if the 200kt if for the RPK-7 or RPK-6)

for a total of 24 with 500 kt and 28 with 200kt.

just let you know this bit of info, just made me feel better about my new Honorguard ship.

sammi79
New Member

I'll get it done now, in a minute.

Posts: 27

Spaceships underpowered VS Ballistic Missile Submarine Apr 3, 2022 17:50:07 GMT

Quote

Post by sammi79 on Apr 3, 2022 17:50:07 GMT

Of the largest ships I designed, my Type 6X BattleBarge sports 4 x 6.57" coil cannons that fire 66 kg nuclear missiles, 8 per minute at a nice 4 km/s.

They have 9 km/s DV of their own, so an ideal intercept velocity of 13 km/s and a 12kt warhead so only small (It's a ship killer not a city flattener, also it was the largest yield I was able to get from a warhead that would fit in the 6.57" diameter missile) but the load for those guns is 1920 (480 each enough to keep firing non stop for 50 minutes)

These ships also have 2 x 85" Missile Bus launchers with 16 x Missile Busses (In my game I call these weapons Torpedos) with 10 km/s DV that each carry 50 of those same nuclear missiles. So the total load of missiles is 2720. Overkill?

The BattleBarge itself weighs in at 72 kt so somewhat larger than a contemporary nuclear sub ? I'm not sure.

sage
Senior Member

Posts: 294

Spaceships underpowered VS Ballistic Missile Submarine Apr 7, 2022 1:01:15 GMT

Quote

Post by sage on Apr 7, 2022 1:01:15 GMT

Apr 3, 2022 17:50:07 GMT sammi79 said:

Of the largest ships I designed, my Type 6X BattleBarge sports 4 x 6.57" coil cannons that fire 66 kg nuclear missiles, 8 per minute at a nice 4 km/s.

They have 9 km/s DV of their own, so an ideal intercept velocity of 13 km/s and a 12kt warhead so only small (It's a ship killer not a city flattener, also it was the largest yield I was able to get from a warhead that would fit in the 6.57" diameter missile) but the load for those guns is 1920 (480 each enough to keep firing non stop for 50 minutes)

These ships also have 2 x 85" Missile Bus launchers with 16 x Missile Busses (In my game I call these weapons Torpedos) with 10 km/s DV that each carry 50 of those same nuclear missiles. So the total load of missiles is 2720. Overkill?

The BattleBarge itself weighs in at 72 kt so somewhat larger than a contemporary nuclear sub ? I'm not sure.

The BattleBarge would be on very large. The Tyhpoon-class Submarine, the largest ballistic missile submarine in the world weights in around 24,500 metric tons surfaced and 48,000 metric tons Submerged. The US Ohio-class submarine is 15,209 metric tons surfaced and 16738 metric tons Submerged.

Also your ship sound like one form Attack Vector Tactical.