komo
New Member
Posts: 15
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Post by komo on May 20, 2020 23:35:29 GMT
The ships have never engaged anything in that run, they had dV, but the game would not let me make any sort of maneuvers. Also that's a little hurtful. Show me anyone who beat any of these missions on the first try. Why the first try? Seemed like the guy was angry at me for not beating it fast enough and I commented as such. Okay, serious question: I asked for help, why is everyone immideately going hostile?
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komo
New Member
Posts: 15
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Post by komo on May 20, 2020 23:36:32 GMT
If all you want to be is rude and condescending then I'd rather just block you. Protip: You will quickly run out of people willing to help you that way. Well, if the only thing that people will do is berate me for not being good enough when I asked for advice, then maybe I don't need help from them. Calling me a troll when asking for help is not "helping".
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Post by AtomHeartDragon on May 20, 2020 23:48:22 GMT
Okay, serious question: I asked for help, why is everyone immideately going hostile? Could it have something to do with you failing to provide information that would let others solve YOUR problem? Repeatedly, on repeated explicit requests? Hmm... Probably not. I guess it's just everyone but you being an asshole, then.
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komo
New Member
Posts: 15
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Post by komo on May 20, 2020 23:55:14 GMT
Okay, serious question: I asked for help, why is everyone immideately going hostile? Could it have something to do with you failing to provide information that would let others solve YOUR problem? Repeatedly, on repeated explicit requests? Hmm... Probably not. I guess it's just everyone but you being an asshole, then. I've explained the problem several times already, you could scroll up. My missiles fly past the enemy without exploding or they get taken down without ever making it to the enemy. My drones fire for a second or two and then stop completely as they are getting lasered. I can't record anything because my computer is trash. Best I can do is screenshots like this:
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Post by RiftandRend on May 21, 2020 1:48:23 GMT
The issue is likely too much perpendicular velocity during the intercept. Stock missiles lack the acceleration and delta-v to make corrections and fixed guns on drones are unable to track effectively. Try and get the perpendicular velocity as close to zero as you can.
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Echo
Full Member
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Post by Echo on May 21, 2020 6:52:06 GMT
You can find how to reduce the perpendicular velocity in my videos: when I'm adjusting the tangential and out of plane components of the next burn I'm actually looking to minimize the perpendicular intercept velocity as much as I can. Don't use the automatic intercept or fly-by functions. The first salvo I send consists of 50 nuclear missiles in "no order": they won't explode on their own, I manually tell them to do that. I pause/unpause the game (spacebar) many times until the missiles are on top of the enemy fleet, then I manually detonate them.
Can you make a screenshot of what your intercept velocities look like?
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komo
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Post by komo on May 21, 2020 7:19:12 GMT
You can find how to do that in my videos: when I'm adjusting the tangential and out of plane components of the next burn I'm actually looking to minimize the perpendicular intercept velocity as much as I can. The first salvo I send consists of 50 nuclear missiles in "no order": they won't explode on their own, I manually tell them to do that. I pause/unpause the game (spacebar) until the missiles are on top of the enemy fleet, then I detonate them, then unpause the game. Can you make a screenshot of what your intercept velocities look like?
I'm trying, but like I said it doesn't seem to be working on my end. I start off by sending groups of missiles that hit the enemy fleet in the back in this case at the fastest speeds I can manage with my dV. The flaks are going at 1.4km/s and nukes at 600m/s because otherwise they just run out of dV when in combat and get disabled: Then I start evading missiles and drones for a bit: Then my missiles reach the enemy and do absolutely nothing: Then I send in the drones: The drones fire for a second or two and then stop shooting while the enemy rips them apart even though I tell them to ignore range: Beam drones somehow kill the empty carrier that they weren't even supposed to be shooting at because I told them to shoot the laser frigate: Now I only have my main ships left and I can't engage with the enemy directly because they would just get shredded, again.
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Post by AtomHeartDragon on May 21, 2020 8:53:20 GMT
I'm trying, but like I said it doesn't seem to be working on my end. I start off by sending groups of missiles that hit the enemy fleet in the back in this case at the fastest speeds I can manage with my dV. The flaks are going at 1.4km/s and nukes at 600m/s because otherwise they just run out of dV when in combat and get disabled: Then I start evading missiles and drones for a bit: Then my missiles reach the enemy and do absolutely nothing: Then I send in the drones: The drones fire for a second or two and then stop shooting while the enemy rips them apart even though I tell them to ignore range: Beam drones somehow kill the empty carrier that they weren't even supposed to be shooting at because I told them to shoot the laser frigate: Now I only have my main ships left and I can't engage with the enemy directly because they would just get shredded, again. And that might actually be useful. I'll try to give you more detailed analysis later on today, but so far: - I can already tell you that you are not intercepting fast enough with missiles, but you shouldn't use missiles' dV for that - use your capital fleet as first stage, it has more dV; missiles should only give a short burn early to gently push them off and let them build distance to arrive well in advance of the main fleet. "Well in advance" means enough time to let you squeeze all the other missile salvoes and drone fleets in there.
If your missile delta-v and parallel component of intercept velocity don't add up to at least 2.1 km/s (assuming no perpendicular component at all) flaks won't even be effective, and nukes need to approach fast as well or frigate will burn them. - Second, perpendicular velocity needs to be close to 0; >300m/s is a lot, missiles need a lot of delta-v and time to compensate for that. They are unlikely to have former because they are stock missiles with crap delta-v, causing them to disable themselves, and they might not have enough of the latter, causing a miss.
- Third, intercepting slow with drones is not necessarily the best strategy, it just trades off hitting power and accuracy for multiple attack runs. It actually becomes THE worst strategy if you haven't taken out enemy lasers. If your Stingers intercept and enemy frigate is still alive and active, you are having a bad day.
- Fourth, Ceres isn't terribly massive but you can still use Oberth effect to save a little delta-v.
you can refer to the screenshots I posted earlier ITT for example intercept parameters.
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Post by cipherpunks on May 21, 2020 9:43:52 GMT
Beam drones somehow kill the empty carrier that they weren't even supposed to be shooting at because I told them to shoot the laser frigate: komo , are you completely sure that you've disabled distributed targeting as can be seen in Echo 's video that was made for you? Edit: I see that at 21:04 here the drones still want to do their own thing. Weird. A bug?..
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Post by AtomHeartDragon on May 21, 2020 15:25:06 GMT
Ok, now for more detailed analysis: I start off by sending groups of missiles that hit the enemy fleet in the back in this case at the fastest speeds I can manage with my dV. The flaks are going at 1.4km/s and nukes at 600m/s because otherwise they just run out of dV when in combat and get disabled: - As I detailed above, this is not true. You first use your fleet's delta-v to achieve good high-velocity intercept, then launch your missiles and just give them a gentle nudge early enough.
- Optimally you should split them into groups and stagger them (which you seem to have done correctly). Note that the point of stagger is to avoid missiles killing each other and to allow them to retarget rather than overkilling one ship. If your salvo doesn't even make it to the target splitting it up only makes things worse.
- The bottom line is that your missiles are both too slow and too empty, and the way to ensure they aren't is accelerating them with you ship's engines using ship's delta-v while they are still sitting inside their ammo bins.
Seems ok. You shouldn't be evading missiles specifically if they're flaks and you have decoys, but if you happen to dodge them while dancing enemy drones out of dV - all the better. Because they're arriving slow, empty and with significant perpendicular velocity component: - They are unlikely to even make it to the target because they have a lot of perpendicular velocity to cancel out, and little delta-v to do that, limited time before they will have missed, and to make things worse, as they come closer parallel velocity is decreasing and perpendicular increasing.
- Thanks to flak bug stock flaks won't even get to do damage below 2.1km/s and your intercept velocity and delta-v left don't add up to at least that number even if you don't subtract delta-v needed to get velocity vector on target (because of perpendicular velocity).
- Since your missiles need to cancel significant perpendicular velocity component they will be oriented more or less sideways towards enemy lasers exposing cylindrical flanks rather than highly sloped nose armor to enemy laser fire making burn-through times much shorter.
The whole situation looks more or less like below: (Situational diagram brought to you by severe Dia abuse) And since missiles did nothing to take out the Laser Frigate your Stingers are essentially dead on arrival. - Most likely they don't. Game just stops drawing tracers if there is too much firepower flying around. You'd see their guns still firing if you zoomed close enough and the bullets are still there, even though invisible.
- Note that the higher your intercept velocity (and the higher your intercept velocity compared to gun's exit velocity), the more point is there to ignoring range (because distance doesn't really matter, what matters is the time to target, effective range is a bit of a lie), and the more damage do your guns do (but also they are stopped by Whipple shield more effectively - which shouldn't matter with high ROF weapons that chew up Whipple shield in an instant). It is also easier on your computer.
- And of course they get ripped apart by the Laser Frigate. That's what it does. That's what it's for. And that's why you absolutely need it dead or at least incapable of firing before your Stingers get there.
Target ship prioritization can get wonky.
Anyway: - You should have sent the beam drones before Stingers (before or after first missile wave).
- Given that Beam drones have very weak lasers with poor range (but you should almost always ignore range with lasers, since it's essentially free), you should concentrate fire on enemy modules that beam drones can reasonably take out - aluminium crew radiators are a good bet, both carrier and frigate have those. 10x 400kW long wavelength (IR) lasers don't really stand much chance against 1x 100MW short wavelength one with 7 spare turrets in straight staring contest.
Most likely by orbital craft's 33 and 60mm BRRRRT!, though Laser Frigate can also dish it out.
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Echo
Full Member
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Post by Echo on May 21, 2020 17:24:30 GMT
Edit: I see that at 21:04 here the drones still want to do their own thing. Weird. A bug?.. That is one, and at 24:42 is two. Oh and thanks for freeing up space for more attachments!
Could it be that they shoot at the ship that dissipates more heat? 54.8 MW for the laser skiff, 68.3 MW for the escort carrier. Or that they shoot at the ship that dissipates more heat, and only then the priority target (priorities gets reseted at the start of every gun's range combat)?
komo, AtomHeartDragon gave you a really good explanation of what is going on. If I saw AtomHeartDragon's post before recording, I could have done it differently, but here's a third video (the intention was just to show how I use the nukes in the first salvo since I got it wrong in the previous video, but I ended up recording till the end to showcase what happens when using smaller waves - went really good!): www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHb_K5Dpw1s
(I wonder if the 4th time is a charm, if I'll make it good enough that I won't get bored by watching myself "planning" the intecepts and staring at a paused tactical screen).
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komo
New Member
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Post by komo on May 21, 2020 18:01:17 GMT
komo, AtomHeartDragon gave you a really good explanation of what is going on. If I saw AtomHeartDragon's post before recording, I could have done it differently, but here's a third video (the intention was just to show how I use the nukes in the first salvo since I got it wrong in the precious video, but I ended up recording till the end to showcase what happens when using smaller waves - went really good!): www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHb_K5Dpw1s
(I wonder if the 4th time is a charm, if I'll make it good enough that I won't get bored by watching myself "planning" the intecepts and staring at a paused tactical screen).
Thank you. I'll try again later.
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Post by Flare on Jul 21, 2021 20:23:39 GMT
I just finally finished this mission after like five failed attempts. At first i killed the missile/drone fleets by flipping prograde to retrograde orbit many times. When they finally died, i plotted a retrograde intercept, launched half of my flak missiles and drones (missiles slightly ahead of the drones, but in one fleet), and switched my ship fleet back to prograde orbit. The first strike on USTA fleet initially heavily damaged the laser frigate (it survived, but their radiators, engine and lasers were dead), and killed off one of the support crafts. Then i plotted another retrograde intercept and sent the rest of flak missiles and drones. The second encounter finished the laser frigate and damaged both the surviving support crafts. Then i sent the nuclear missiles, which killed one of the remaining support crafts and heavily damaged the other one. Then i did slow prograde intercept with my ships and finished the last, already heavily damaged craft. Until i learned that there's no point whatsoever in trying to attack the USTA fleet with my ships, i got shredded to pieces everytime. I guess the key is to send enough of missiles in the first wave, for the laser frigate to focus on them while the drones behind the missiles do as much damage as possible. When the laser frigate is out of the way, the rest is relatively easy. The mission took a lot of time, i was nowhere close to the 9H record, but i finished it without my ships being damaged at all.
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