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Post by boersgard on Aug 18, 2018 2:41:57 GMT
I have 7 crew modules packed together, they are in the nose of the ship behind the heaviest armor. Here, the AI directs 16 200MW lasers at my forward radiators (which are just behind my crew module), and within a few seconds of performing a roll, my entire crew dies. This happens reliably, every time I roll the rocketship - if I do not roll, the crew does not die. In either scenario the lasers don't appear to do any damage or penetrate any armor. Attached is the export data for this rocketship. Attachments:New Spacecraft 2.txt (7.29 KB)
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Post by someusername6 on Aug 18, 2018 6:23:24 GMT
Basic sanity check: does the crew survive if you perform the roll *without* the lasers? That is, are you sure the crew isn't dying because they are rotating too fast?
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Post by boersgard on Aug 18, 2018 6:27:43 GMT
That was the first thing I checked and yes, they survive just fine
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Post by AtomHeartDragon on Aug 18, 2018 9:55:32 GMT
I have 7 crew modules packed together, they are in the nose of the ship behind the heaviest armor. Here, the AI directs 16 200MW lasers at my forward radiators (which are just behind my crew module), and within a few seconds of performing a roll, my entire crew dies. This happens reliably, every time I roll the rocketship - if I do not roll, the crew does not die. In either scenario the lasers don't appear to do any damage or penetrate any armor. Below is the export data for this rocketship: RadiatorModule [] - Crew Radiator
UsesCustomName true
Composition Lithium
PanelWidth_m 1.5
Height_m 0.01
Thickness_m 0.006
ArmorThickness_m 0.005
Panels 3
FrontTaper_radians 0
BackTaper_radians 1.04
SurfaceFinish Rhenium
RadiatorModule [] - Forward Reactor Combat Radiator
UsesCustomName true
Composition Amorphous Carbon
PanelWidth_m 1
Height_m 20
Thickness_m 0.006
ArmorThickness_m 0.005
Panels 5
FrontTaper_radians 1.219
BackTaper_radians 0
SurfaceFinish Titanium Nitride
RadiatorModule [] - Reserve Reactor Radiator
Description For radiating heat under fire - keep the nose on the enemy, retract combat radiators, and wait until the flyby is complete.
UsesCustomName true
Composition Amorphous Carbon
PanelWidth_m 1
Height_m 30
Thickness_m 0.006
ArmorThickness_m 0.005
Panels 12
FrontTaper_radians 0
BackTaper_radians 0.878
SurfaceFinish Rhenium
ThermoelectricFissionReactorModule [AE] 1.01 GW Reactor - [15m x 5.8m]
Description Version 6. By Apophys.
UsesCustomName true
ReactorCoreDimensions_m 0.14 0.276
NuclearReactor
Coolant Sodium
Moderator Diamond
ModeratorMass_kg 20
Fuel U-233 Dioxide
FuelMass_kg 8.82
FuelEnrichment_Percent 0.97
ControlRodComposition Hafnium Carbide
ControlRodMass_kg 133
NeutronReflector Diamond
ReflectorThickness_m 0
AverageNeutronFlux__m2_s 2.2e+20
InnerTurbopump
Composition Amorphous Carbon
PumpRadius_m 0.69
RotationalSpeed_RPM 479
ThermocoupleInnerDimensions_m 7.5 3.48
Thermocouple
PTypeComposition Osmium
NTypeComposition Tungsten
Length_m 0.001
ThermocoupleExitTemperature_K 2500
OuterCoolant Sodium
OuterTurbopump
Composition Selenium
PumpRadius_m 0.59
RotationalSpeed_RPM 504
NuclearThermalRocketModule [AE] 10 MN HD NTR Gimbal
Description Version 1. By Apophys.
UsesCustomName true
ReactorCoreHeight_m 0.85
NuclearReactor
Coolant Hydrogen Deuteride
Moderator Diamond
ModeratorMass_kg 0
Fuel U-233 Dioxide
FuelMass_kg 45.9
FuelEnrichment_Percent 0.97
ControlRodComposition Titanium Diboride
ControlRodMass_kg 184
NeutronReflector Diamond
ReflectorThickness_m 0
AverageNeutronFlux__m2_s 2.3e+20
ThermalRocket
ChamberComposition Diamond
ThroatRadius_m 0.0592
ChamberWallThickness_m 0.0412
ChamberContractionRatio 4.8
NozzleExpansionRatio 32
NozzleExpansionAngle_degrees 7.5
RegenerativeCooling_Percent 1
Injector
Composition Potassium
PumpRadius_m 1.08
RotationalSpeed_RPM 88.8
Gimbal
InnerRadius_m 1.53
ArmorComposition Polytetrafluoroethylene
ArmorThickness_m 0.001
AttachmentCount 1
MomentumWheels
Composition Selenium
RotationalSpeed_RPM 2410
GimbalAngle_degrees 54.9
CrewModule Command 13 - 7x, [12m x 11.3m]
UsesCustomName true
CrewCapacity 13
Decks 5
StructureMaterial Magnesium Aluminum Zinc
ShellThickness_m 0.01
NuclearThermalRocketModule HD 487MN - [10m x 18m]
Description Version 1. By Apophys.
UsesCustomName true
ReactorCoreHeight_m 0.4
NuclearReactor
Coolant Hydrogen Deuteride
Moderator Diamond
ModeratorMass_kg 0
Fuel U-233 Dioxide
FuelMass_kg 2500
FuelEnrichment_Percent 0.97
ControlRodComposition Titanium Diboride
ControlRodMass_kg 9880
NeutronReflector Diamond
ReflectorThickness_m 0
AverageNeutronFlux__m2_s 2.2196e+20
ThermalRocket
ChamberComposition Diamond
ThroatRadius_m 0.95
ChamberWallThickness_m 0.08
ChamberContractionRatio 2.2
NozzleExpansionRatio 15
NozzleExpansionAngle_degrees 13
RegenerativeCooling_Percent 1
Injector
Composition Polyethylene
PumpRadius_m 5
RotationalSpeed_RPM 47
GimbalAngle_degrees 0
PropellantTankModule HD Droptank - 630t, 4x, [12m x 50m]
Description Either jettison prior to contact or before you get hit.
UsesCustomName true
Propellant Hydrogen Deuteride
StructureComposition Vanadium Chromium Steel
ReactionMass_kg 6.38e+05
HeightToRadiusRatio 6.37
AdditionalArmorThickness_m 0
External
ExplosiveBoltMass_kg 0.4
ExplosiveBoltComposition Octogen
PropellantTankModule HD Tank - 1.13kt, 19x - [24m x 30m]
UsesCustomName true
Propellant Hydrogen Deuteride
StructureComposition Vanadium Chromium Steel
ReactionMass_kg 59700
HeightToRadiusRatio 10.84
AdditionalArmorThickness_m 0
PropellantTankModule HD Tank - 1.7kt, 19x, [30m x 30m]
UsesCustomName true
Propellant Hydrogen Deuteride
StructureComposition Vanadium Chromium Steel
ReactionMass_kg 90000
HeightToRadiusRatio 8.4
AdditionalArmorThickness_m 0
PropellantTankModule HD Tank - 162t, 7x - [10m x 25m]
Description 7of these are designed to pack into 15m diameter, 30m tall space.
UsesCustomName true
Propellant Hydrogen Deuteride
StructureComposition Vanadium Chromium Steel
ReactionMass_kg 23200
HeightToRadiusRatio 13.7
AdditionalArmorThickness_m 0
PropellantTankModule HD Tank - 520t, 19x - [16m x 30m]
UsesCustomName true
Propellant Hydrogen Deuteride
StructureComposition Vanadium Chromium Steel
ReactionMass_kg 27400
HeightToRadiusRatio 17
AdditionalArmorThickness_m 0
SpacerModule Radial Spacer - 25m x 0m
UsesCustomName true
Dimensions_m 12.5 0
SpacerModule Radial Spacer - 32m x 0m
UsesCustomName true
Dimensions_m 16 0
RadiationShieldModule Radiation Shield - 15m x 0.01m
UsesCustomName true
Composition Lithium-6
Dimensions_m 7.5 0.01
SpacerModule Vertical Spacer - 0m x 20m
UsesCustomName true
Dimensions_m 0 20
SpacerModule Vertical Spacer - 0m x 50m
UsesCustomName true
Dimensions_m 0 50
CraftBlueprint New Spacecraft 2
Modules
HD Tank - 1.7kt, 19x, [30m x 30m] 19 0.73457 null 0 0
Vertical Spacer - 0m x 50m 1 79.957 null 0 0
HD 487MN - [10m x 18m] 1 0 null 0 0
Radial Spacer - 32m x 0m 1 15.339 null 0 0
[AE] 10 MN HD NTR Gimbal 4 130.91 null 0 0
[AE] 10 MN HD NTR Gimbal 8 37.701 null 0 0
HD Tank - 162t, 7x - [10m x 25m] 7 0.62524 null 0 0
Radial Spacer - 25m x 0m 1 70.582 null 0 0
HD Tank - 1.13kt, 19x - [24m x 30m] 19 41.398 null 0 0
Vertical Spacer - 0m x 20m 1 175.04 null 0 0
HD Tank - 520t, 19x - [16m x 30m] 19 74.488 null 0 0
HD Droptank - 630t, 4x, [12m x 50m] 4 7.5958 null 0 0
[AE] 10 MN HD NTR Gimbal 4 108.31 null 0 0
[AE] 1.01 GW Reactor - [15m x 5.8m] 1 76.832 null 0 0
[AE] 1.01 GW Reactor - [15m x 5.8m] 1 77.832 null 0 0
Radiation Shield - 15m x 0.01m 1 78.894 null 0 0
[] - Reserve Reactor Radiator 4 10.227 [AE] 1.01 GW Reactor - [15m x 5.8m] 0.78 0
[] - Forward Reactor Combat Radiator 4 122.23 [AE] 1.01 GW Reactor - [15m x 5.8m] 0.78 0
Command 13 - 7x, [12m x 11.3m] 7 79.426 null 0 0
[] - Crew Radiator 8 36.831 Command 13 - 7x, [12m x 11.3m] 0.4 0
Armor
Shape Octagonal
Concave false
ArmorLayers
Boron Filament 0.005 0 0 1 1 0
Graphite Aerogel 2 0 0 1 1 0
Diamond 0.005 0 0 0.325 1 0
Vanadium Chromium Steel 0.01 0 0.325 1 1 0 Make your blueprint an attachment. The forum mangles the formatting and CoADE can't read the result.
Without testing, if the issue is not centrifugation, I expect that roll killing the crew happens because it exposes all the crew modules to incoming fire instead of just some of them. Lasers probably bore through the armour at the base of the radiator and if CM's aren't directly exposed to the beam, they might get hit by plasma or spallation.
Examine what happens inside the ship with and without the roll.
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Post by boersgard on Aug 18, 2018 10:29:04 GMT
Nothing happens inside the ship. The lasers don't penetrate the armor and the crew aren't underneath or behind where the lasers are hitting in any case, they're further up the nose of the rocket.
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Post by AtomHeartDragon on Aug 18, 2018 12:23:02 GMT
Ok, I have done some tests with your ship. Your crew is killed by acceleration trauma:
- Crew cans remain intact.
- Attempting the same manoeuvre against laserless, conventional cannon armed ships kills the crew before the ship is reached by any projectiles - lasers or any other forms of combat damage don't contribute here.
- Rolling while in combat tends to induce slight wobble for some reason, possibly due to some minor reorientation attempts - this increases forces acting on the crew. You can mount remote control module on your ship and with a bit of luck observe CMs dying in sequence as the ship attempts to roll on axis while it already wobbles a bit, exposing CMs to max g-forces sequentially.
- You can replicate the issue without combat by issuing roll an reorientation commands, although it's very fiddly.
- Running the ship nearly out of propellant (no combat) and then attempting 180o turn kills the crew.
- You're welcome.
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Post by boersgard on Aug 18, 2018 22:36:37 GMT
Thanks so much!
It threw me off when I tested - just the rotation by itself and the crew was fine outside combat, but not inside combat, I should've tried some other maneuvers that induce higher g-forces to rule it out.
It still seems very odd to me that lasers are somehow inducing oscillation in the ship that kills the crew while by all appearances the ship isn't doing anything but rolling, and when rolling outside of combat, this won't kill the crew.
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Post by AtomHeartDragon on Aug 18, 2018 23:23:07 GMT
Thanks so much! It threw me off when I tested - just the rotation by itself and the crew was fine outside combat, but not inside combat, I should've tried some other maneuvers that induce higher g-forces to rule it out. It still seems very odd to me that lasers are somehow inducing oscillation in the ship that kills the crew while by all appearances the ship isn't doing anything but rolling, and when rolling outside of combat, this won't kill the crew. See above, you can replicate it without lasers. You just need some attacking ship firing at you, not even hitting. |
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Post by boersgard on Aug 19, 2018 0:04:08 GMT
But why, then, does rolling without someone shooting at the rocket cause no problems?
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Post by AtomHeartDragon on Aug 19, 2018 0:13:20 GMT
But why, then, does rolling without someone shooting at the rocket cause no problems? I don't know, but I suspect there might be some minor orientation corrections involved when being shot at causing the wobble.
Anyway, your ship pretty much rides the fine line between crushing and not crushing the crew when full. I'd recommend either moving CMs close to the centre of gravity, or degrading manoeuvrability.
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Post by boersgard on Aug 19, 2018 0:23:56 GMT
Yeah, it's a work in progress. With previous designs I didn't have nearly as much thrust, so having the crew so far away from the CoM wasn't an issue, but now it seems it will be.
I try to avoid it because the CoM also tends to be the widest point of the rocket - and that's where I put my turrets, and turrets leave giant gaping holes in the armor when they get destroyed, which I don't want around my crew modules, or in front of my crew modules, since any chance shot from a forward angle could deflect down into anything under and behind those holes. So I only have my engine and my propellant rearward of the turret belt to reduce the impact of those lucky shots.
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Post by AtomHeartDragon on Aug 19, 2018 8:09:24 GMT
Yeah, it's a work in progress. With previous designs I didn't have nearly as much thrust, so having the crew so far away from the CoM wasn't an issue, but now it seems it will be.
I try to avoid it because the CoM also tends to be the widest point of the rocket - and that's where I put my turrets, and turrets leave giant gaping holes in the armor when they get destroyed, which I don't want around my crew modules, or in front of my crew modules, since any chance shot from a forward angle could deflect down into anything under and behind those holes. So I only have my engine and my propellant rearward of the turret belt to reduce the impact of those lucky shots.
Putting your CMs near the CoM does increase the risk that they will be wiped out by enemy fire but there is no working around inertia - if you want an agile ship this is simply something you do. You can always stick propellant and some of reactors in the nose instead (I am a big fan of multiple reactor groups spread around the ship - unlike CMs they don't seem to mind g-forces) and either try to manage the risk of penetration by carefully choosing and arranging your turrets and RCS motors or put them all posterior to the crew. You can also try armouring the tanks you put directly around CMs or spreading the CMs around some central component while still keeping them close to CoM. |
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