|
|
Post by captinjoehenry on Oct 19, 2016 18:02:03 GMT
All-or-nothing armor with a slim profile would likely help, smaller cross-section means a smaller, lighter launcher, and reduces the enemy's effective range. I know bulky stuffed whipple shields are popular right now, but a drone doesn't really need that much protection, they can stuff their ammo, controller, reactor, and a tiny bit of spare fuel into a single small citadel to make them sufficiently difficult to mission-kill (just make sure to cut engines if it loses the main tanks, so it doesn't burn the last of its fuel and self-destruct). This is definitely true. Drones are a very different kettle of fish from manned cap ships when it comes to armor and drones really can take advantage of being a small target. The main thing I want to say about drones is the fact that currently killing the drone or missile command ship doesn't effect their missiles or drones at all and even though there is no one left to command them they continue to fully function  |
|
|
|
Post by ross128 on Oct 19, 2016 18:31:28 GMT
That is definitely a bit of an oversight, and is especially annoying on Vesta Overkill. I swear the AI de-targets and orbits some of its ordinance just to spite me when it realizes it's going to lose. It only takes me two hours to kill their main fleet, but several days to hunt down their parked ordinance. >_>
Though I actually won the first iteration of Vesta Overkill by abusing that (because I didn't have access to custom modules yet). I knew I couldn't win the straight-up gun fight when they charged their main fleet straight at me, so I launched ALL my ordinance in about eight groups, parked them, and used them to hunt down their crippled capital fleet after the gun-fight against mine was over.
|
|
|
|
Post by captinjoehenry on Oct 19, 2016 18:34:43 GMT
That is definitely a bit of an oversight, and is especially annoying on Vesta Overkill. I swear the AI de-targets and orbits some of its ordinance just to spite me when it realizes it's going to lose. It only takes me two hours to kill their main fleet, but several days to hunt down their parked ordinance. >_> Though I actually won the first iteration of Vesta Overkill by abusing that (because I didn't have access to custom modules yet). I knew I couldn't win the straight-up gun fight when they charged their main fleet straight at me, so I launched ALL my ordinance in about eight groups, parked them, and used them to hunt down their crippled capital fleet after the gun-fight against mine was over. Yeah that was really annoying. I think it mostly happens when the enemy knows their missiles or drones are running really low on delta v. As such the ai puts these more or less crippled missiles and drones into a parking orbit in the vain hope that at some point the missile or drone will fly by your ship burn their engine for a single second and then self destruct :/ |
|
|
|
Post by redparadize on Oct 19, 2016 18:43:03 GMT
A large portion of a manned capital ship's computing power will be to facilitate strategic operations, which is why we see a server room for something like the Zumwalt you mentioned. For tactical roles like our drone ships it will be much more like the avionics package of a modern fighter, like the F-22. The onboard computers for that fighter do the actual flying by computing and manipulating the control surfaces, managing the engines, managing the coms, EW, radar, firing solutions, etc. Any of the onboard black box systems (such as the engines, datalinks, or radar) will have their own embedded processors to handle their own inner workings. I don't think it's correct to assume any of that needs to be operated remotely from the mothership during the 30 second space battle. Some coms for coordination and telemetry would be there, but there doesn't need to be a tech back at the mothership constantly fiddling with the reactor or radar (again, think F-22).
All of the actual drone avionics would add up to more than a 1kg remote control package surely. But I don't see it being a server farm either. Don't underestimate sensor size. For within the 200km combat range, it would be similar to plane mounted FLIR. And thats several kg right there. Then, these system would guide missiles until they reach their own sensor range. Now, in space there is no atmosphere, but great distance. I am doubtful that a AIM-9X sized FLIR would have enough the resolution and accuracy to perform target identification and tracking at one million km distance. Even if its semi autonomous, it would still require a relatively large antenna, specialty in environment like jupiter radiation belt. |
|
|
|
Post by ross128 on Oct 19, 2016 18:43:58 GMT
Large drones might also be good platforms for large arrays of small lasers too, since one of the problems those arrays have is that they are crew-intensive, and unlike standard-size drones they're actually big enough to put a few lasers on each one.
|
|
|
|
Post by Durandal on Oct 19, 2016 19:11:08 GMT
Ah yes but you see our PC are running black boxes. This game is a simulation and therefore simplified to allow our computers to run it. For example modern naval warships have supercomputers on board just to run everything. Take the Zumwalt class destroyer for example. It contains a massive server system in order to operate all of the fairly simple modern technology. In comparison most of the capital ships we have are going to have to do a whole hell of a lot more processing to function and take in all of the sensor data. Aim the guns. Manage the power system the cooling system the life support the guidance system the engine controls the ammo transportation and all of the million other things that all need a computer to run and then you need to operate all of this remotely from the mother ship. Honestly thinking about it there should be a separate computer module for all ships in game simply due to how vital the computers are to making everything work and the non insubstantial amount of cooling and power they will need to run and if they go then the whole ship is doomed. I think you underestimate the required amount of computational power to run a modern warship. It really is not that hard to do all the calculations for gun laying - people had automatic target tracking guns in WW2, you could do it on an Arduino. I am sure that the gaming consoles in the ships recreational facilities are easily comparable to the vital systems of the ship itself, computing power vise. Wiki states that Zumwalt uses PPC7A and PPC7D computers for it's control needs and the manufactures website states that they are 512MB RAM, 1.4GHz CPU computers that are even obsolete and discontinued. My guess is that by far the largest reasons for big computers on ships are requirements for massive redundancy, robustness, ease of expansion and use of old technology (dictated by conservative designs, as in all safety critical applications, small production runs and huge amount of paperwork). Of course, 1kg computer controlling 1k t warship is still silly, tho. But still I would think that well less than 1% of that 1k t ship would be needed for this purpose, so it can be safely ignored. Definitely as long as sensors are abstracted away too - as these things would be something that I would like to see explicitly handled a bit more. What year does this game take place in again? I'd say any issues about computing power and size are moot. I'm writing this post on a touch-screen Internet capable supercomputer with a built in camera thats like 2cm thick and fits in my pocket. Moore's Law, folks. |
|
|
|
Post by captinjoehenry on Oct 19, 2016 19:12:31 GMT
I think you underestimate the required amount of computational power to run a modern warship. It really is not that hard to do all the calculations for gun laying - people had automatic target tracking guns in WW2, you could do it on an Arduino. I am sure that the gaming consoles in the ships recreational facilities are easily comparable to the vital systems of the ship itself, computing power vise. Wiki states that Zumwalt uses PPC7A and PPC7D computers for it's control needs and the manufactures website states that they are 512MB RAM, 1.4GHz CPU computers that are even obsolete and discontinued. My guess is that by far the largest reasons for big computers on ships are requirements for massive redundancy, robustness, ease of expansion and use of old technology (dictated by conservative designs, as in all safety critical applications, small production runs and huge amount of paperwork). Of course, 1kg computer controlling 1k t warship is still silly, tho. But still I would think that well less than 1% of that 1k t ship would be needed for this purpose, so it can be safely ignored. Definitely as long as sensors are abstracted away too - as these things would be something that I would like to see explicitly handled a bit more. What year does this game take place in again? I'd say any issues about computing power and size are moot. I'm writing this post on a touch-screen Internet capable supercomputer with a built in camera thats like 2cm thick and fits in my pocket. Moore's Law, folks. As close to now as possible. All of the tech in game is current tech that is fully understood and defined by equations. In essence the year could be 2016 or even earlier. |
|
|
|
Post by Durandal on Oct 19, 2016 19:16:07 GMT
What year does this game take place in again? I'd say any issues about computing power and size are moot. I'm writing this post on a touch-screen Internet capable supercomputer with a built in camera thats like 2cm thick and fits in my pocket. Moore's Law, folks. As close to now as possible. All of the tech in game is current tech that is fully understood and defined by equations. In essence the year could be 2016 or even earlier. True, but we do know that it's at least 200+ years in the future based on the Nippon Prime fluff about their immortal empress. Even with, say, 50 years of "dark times" with the Earth going kaput I'd say that's plenty of time for computer tech to advance. |
|
|
|
Post by captinjoehenry on Oct 19, 2016 19:24:08 GMT
As close to now as possible. All of the tech in game is current tech that is fully understood and defined by equations. In essence the year could be 2016 or even earlier. True, but we do know that it's at least 200+ years in the future based on the Nippon Prime fluff about their immortal empress. Even with, say, 50 years of "dark times" with the Earth going kaput I'd say that's plenty of time for computer tech to advance. I would like to point to the fact that most ancient western empires had 'imortal' emperors or empresses so I would take that with a grain of salt. And QSwitched has the game setup for very near future to present day technology. And I would think that the whole war on earth would have rather thoroughly demolished mores laws with the massive world wide emp hit and massed destruction of the environment and huge destruction the focus would be on surviving and there would be less and less people who would have money to buy fancy computers and with the hellscape of the war the military would just want same old same old that is still reliable. |
|
|
|
Post by redparadize on Oct 19, 2016 19:24:25 GMT
Your phone camera will never be able to see Jupiter's moon. its too small
Sensor are not affected to that extent by moore law. They can be made more compact, but Light (and IR) diminish intensity at the square of the distance. There is not much photon to catch at these range and intensity level.
|
|
|
|
Post by captinjoehenry on Oct 19, 2016 19:25:21 GMT
Also we seemed to have wandered quite a bit far afield of the topic of vessel armor |
|
|
|
Post by redparadize on Oct 19, 2016 19:27:19 GMT
Sorry! My fault!
Created a separated topic for that discussion.
|
|
|
|
Post by thorneel on Oct 19, 2016 23:16:12 GMT
That is definitely a bit of an oversight, and is especially annoying on Vesta Overkill. I swear the AI de-targets and orbits some of its ordinance just to spite me when it realizes it's going to lose. It only takes me two hours to kill their main fleet, but several days to hunt down their parked ordinance. >_> This does sound like something Overkill would do, though. Sub-capital drones would warrant its own thread, as there are many thing to discuss there beyond what is required for tactical combat. Why are nuclear engines and powerplants require 6 months of fuel if those drones will run for at most a few days? Why is the natural fission powering a RTG magically stopped when the drone/missile is stowed in ammo boxes? (I suspect it is the same Weak Force Nullifier that is used on radon tanks) If drones and missile use something as complex as a nuclear reactor or as atrociously corrosive as some of the available fuels, why are they magically maintenance-free once stored? Why do drones need a launcher? Why can't they be docked, or even simply having a lamprey-style command ship detach and let the main body of the ship go fight on remote control? Also, the reports of NEFP piercing metres of osmium do feel a bit strange. Wouldn't there be some calculations failing, like with the superguns? |
|
|
|
Post by redparadize on Oct 20, 2016 0:33:05 GMT
True, but you don't need these launcher to be armored, same for the carrier. If you do its kinda defeating the purpose I believe. That's true but another thing is that drones and missiles are fully functional even if there is no one alive to control them. Which is an issue as normally you would just spam and take out the command ship but currently that would do nothing for you. I did not mean mothership was expandable. Its just that my donnager design, once emptied of its pocket battleship drone, have 26.4 km/s Dv at +3g. With that much Dv, you don't need armor. |
|
|
|
Post by captinjoehenry on Oct 20, 2016 0:43:11 GMT
Yeah that is no where near enough delta v to avoid massed waves of missiles. I mean each wave has about 10km/s of Dv and each wave can easily contain around 100 missiles and there can be a whole fuck load of waves. I mean even decently deadly missiles can be made for less than 200kg and less than 1,000 credits. So 100 of those is 20 tons of missiles and 100,000 credits and you can sure as hell carry a crap load of those types of missiles and the missile stock pile will still be there when you've run out of delta v dodging all of the previous waves. Likely to be around the first 3 waves you'll be able to dodge and then you are so doomed.
|
|
