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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 10, 2017 10:30:58 GMT
Or any fibrous material for that matter? I see no reason, that would make a graphite aerogel or boron filament projectile infeasible. Though I suspect aerogel armatures to be highly inefficient, boron filament may be of use. At the very least I don't see why they shouldn't be an option.
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Post by Rocket Witch on Jul 10, 2017 17:44:19 GMT
Boron and silica aren't electrically conductive, at least to the point where the game will let you use them in railguns even if they weren't fibrous. Most other fibres are comparable, being made of polymers. However something like metallic microlattice (which gets classed under fibres due to being porous) might have some application like producing very large shots to increase missile hit chances.
Would a fibrous armature behave like chain-shot? Fancy that for some radiator shredding.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 10, 2017 17:52:56 GMT
Boron and silica aren't electrically conductive, at least to the point where the game will let you use them in railguns. Would a fibrous armature behave like chain-shot? Fancy that for some radiator shredding. The exact way it reacts depend on the actuall composition of the projectile. The difference this makes is, however, encapsulated by the material properities given, provided the structure of the material is significantly smaller thant the bore radius. This is an assumption that is made with alloys and ceramics as well, though, so it's not a real argument agains allowing them.
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Post by AdmiralObvious on Jul 10, 2017 21:58:43 GMT
Isn't the problem with fibrous material the lack of contiguity? Pretty much the only reason I can think of would be the fact that electricity could potentially explosively jump through the amerature, detonating it in the barrel. Especially in the case of capacitor based EM guns.
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Post by shiolle on Jul 11, 2017 6:28:54 GMT
Or any fibrous material for that matter? I see no reason, that would make a graphite aerogel or boron filament projectile infeasible. Though I suspect aerogel armatures to be highly inefficient, boron filament may be of use. At the very least I don't see why they shouldn't be an option. Because the game says that boron filament is worse conductor than wood, as are other materials in Fibers.txt that have their resistivity specified. I found only two porous materials with relatively low resistivity: Graphite Aerogel (5 Ohm m) and Nickel Phosphorus Microlattice (3e-7). To put it into perspective, copper has resistivity of 1.68e−8 Ohm m. In other words of all these materials, only Nickel Phosphorus Microlattice is a good conductor. Then, as far as I understand, your armature needs to support the weight of your projectile under tens of thousands of g of acceleration. I won't do the calculations for you here. I would also think that since electricity moves along the path of least resistance, these porous materials would quickly burn as there will always be incredibly thin parts along that path that would get quickly evaporated. But I don't know the physics behind it well enough to state that with conviction.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 11, 2017 8:34:38 GMT
The concern to electrical continuity is expressed in the resistance, for materials, where the microstructure is significantly smaller than the projectile size. Similarily, heating from resistance would occur uniformly, as it would in metal projectiles. The fact that most fibrous/porous materials have a high resistance is no reason to exclude them from potential use.
As for the ability to hold up to acceleration, the materials ability to withstand high g accelerations is ultimately given by its ultimate tensile strength. This property is already in the game, so I see no problem there.
Don't forget that all of the materials in game have a microstructure, even the alloys and pure metals, as none are expresly monocrystalin. The difference in this case is mostly one of scale. As long as the scale of the projectile is sufficiently larger than the scale of a materials microstucture, it can be treated as we treat projectiles now.
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Post by shiolle on Jul 11, 2017 9:59:34 GMT
The concern to electrical continuity is expressed in the resistance, for materials, where the microstructure is significantly smaller than the projectile size. Similarily, heating from resistance would occur uniformly, as it would in metal projectiles. Does this look uniform to you? The fact that most fibrous/porous materials have a high resistance is no reason to exclude them from potential use. I can't decide if you don't understand what you are talking about or just trolling. Go replace all the cables in your home with wood then and see how that turns out. Anything can be turned into into a conductor if you apply enough power to it, if you don't mind your efficiency plunging by a factor of a few million. It is called dielectric breakdown. Not all materials will survive it of course. As for the ability to hold up to acceleration, the materials ability to withstand high g accelerations is ultimately given by its ultimate tensile strength. This property is already in the game, so I see no problem there. You mean, except that your projectile will crush your armature? Do you need all this just to make sure it's not working and be done with it or do you want to find some new and interesting ways to break the simulation part of the game? I don't think that CoaDE should be a glorified equivalent of high school physics experiment stand. It has enough holes in that simulation as it is.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 11, 2017 10:31:46 GMT
Please gieve context to that image, I can't tell what it is, or properly read the scale. Also note that I stated that the structure of the material needs to be sufficiently small compared to the projectile itself. The image does not seem to show a sub structure that is small compared to the overall size.
As for "the projectile will crush the armature": first off, few people use projectiles infront of the armature in CoaDE. In most cases the armature is the projectile. As for the "crushability" of a material: I'll say it again, the game uses material constants to define how a material reacts under stress. These will tell you how a material reacts to a compressive force provided the scale of the compression is sufficiently larger than the micro structure of the material. This is true for polycrystaline materials as well: the in game constants are only true, given forces applied on a large enough scale so that many crystal boundries are within the effective volume.
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Post by vegemeister on Jul 11, 2017 18:24:12 GMT
It looks like a multi-turn railgun armature.
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Post by shiolle on Jul 11, 2017 19:10:21 GMT
Please gieve context to that image, I can't tell what it is, or properly read the scale. Also note that I stated that the structure of the material needs to be sufficiently small compared to the projectile itself. The image does not seem to show a sub structure that is small compared to the overall size. The image shows a 3d model; the original armature they were modeling was a made of solid metal. On the diagram max temperature is three times higher than min temperature. Full articleAs for "the projectile will crush the armature": first off, few people use projectiles infront of the armature in CoaDE. In most cases the armature is the projectile. As for the "crushability" of a material: I'll say it again, the game uses material constants to define how a material reacts under stress. These will tell you how a material reacts to a compressive force provided the scale of the compression is sufficiently larger than the micro structure of the material. This is true for polycrystaline materials as well: the in game constants are only true, given forces applied on a large enough scale so that many crystal boundries are within the effective volume. Nobody argued that you can't simulate porous materials with existing tools. I compared their properties to bulk materials. For example, this article says that electrical properties of porous Fe-Cr-Al alloy are very different from this same bulk material. Moreover, these properties change non-linearly with the size of pores. While at it, also note the pattern of heating of their lattice.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 11, 2017 19:45:58 GMT
Please gieve context to that image, I can't tell what it is, or properly read the scale. Also note that I stated that the structure of the material needs to be sufficiently small compared to the projectile itself. The image does not seem to show a sub structure that is small compared to the overall size. The image shows a 3d model; the original armature they were modeling was a made of solid metal. On the diagram max temperature is three times higher than min temperature. Full articleAs for "the projectile will crush the armature": first off, few people use projectiles infront of the armature in CoaDE. In most cases the armature is the projectile. As for the "crushability" of a material: I'll say it again, the game uses material constants to define how a material reacts under stress. These will tell you how a material reacts to a compressive force provided the scale of the compression is sufficiently larger than the micro structure of the material. This is true for polycrystaline materials as well: the in game constants are only true, given forces applied on a large enough scale so that many crystal boundries are within the effective volume. Nobody argued that you can't simulate porous materials with existing tools. I compared their properties to bulk materials. For example, this article says that electrical properties of porous Fe-Cr-Al alloy are very different from this same bulk material. Moreover, these properties change non-linearly with the size of pores. While at it, also note the pattern of heating of their lattice. As for the picture: If that is the entirety of the armature, the complex shape of the armature will of course cause different heating across the armature. This is due to the shape of the armature however, not the material. Heating across a microstructured material will be almost uniform, if one regards a conducter that is large in scale compared to the micro structure. If you have an aerogel with a pore size of ~1nm a cube of side length of 1mm with a voltage applied across to opposing sides so that a current flows the resistive heating will be pretty uniform. As for the way the properties of a material change with changing microstructure: That is perfectly true, however most of these properties are well defined in the game, thus giving us these properties for a given microstructure. As long as the properties given are all for the same microstructure there would be no problem using them in railguns, since the properties are accurate.
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Post by AdmiralObvious on Jul 11, 2017 21:06:06 GMT
Assuming the game has the same rule of all fibers in how much "gapage" are in between the fibers, then it's entirely feasible for us to use filaments as ameratures.
I still think they'd be suceptable more to melting (or ignition), and generally coming apart around the edges than the typical bulk material. If the fiber is nanostructured, this should be much less of a problem.
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Post by shiolle on Jul 11, 2017 23:18:05 GMT
As for the picture: If that is the entirety of the armature, the complex shape of the armature will of course cause different heating across the armature. This is due to the shape of the armature however, not the material. Heating across a microstructured material will be almost uniform, if one regards a conducter that is large in scale compared to the micro structure. Isn't there a reason why they prefer this shape of the armature when they construct railguns? It seems like both General Atomics and these guys chose similar shapes. Why is that if they could increase efficiency by choosing a different shape? If you have an aerogel with a pore size of ~1nm a cube of side length of 1mm with a voltage applied across to opposing sides so that a current flows the resistive heating will be pretty uniform. I don't think it will. There are things like surface effect for example that causes uneven flow of current across the material and thus uneven heating. I gave you two articles and in neither of them current running through a material that was, as you like to say, "large in scale compared to the micro structure", caused even heating. Now I would like to see some proof of what you are saying.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 12, 2017 8:31:57 GMT
As for the picture: If that is the entirety of the armature, the complex shape of the armature will of course cause different heating across the armature. This is due to the shape of the armature however, not the material. Heating across a microstructured material will be almost uniform, if one regards a conducter that is large in scale compared to the micro structure. Isn't there a reason why they prefer this shape of the armature when they construct railguns? It seems like both General Atomics and these guys chose similar shapes. Why is that if they could increase efficiency by choosing a different shape? If you have an aerogel with a pore size of ~1nm a cube of side length of 1mm with a voltage applied across to opposing sides so that a current flows the resistive heating will be pretty uniform. I don't think it will. There are things like surface effect for example that causes uneven flow of current across the material and thus uneven heating. I gave you two articles and in neither of them current running through a material that was, as you like to say, "large in scale compared to the micro structure", caused even heating. Now I would like to see some proof of what you are saying. 1. Yes, there is a very good reason why armatrure shapes akin to this are chosen. The strakes at the side are to prevent arking as far as I'm aware (see this site). As for the curved design see this thread. This has nothing to do with the material an armature is made of however. 2. In the artical about the electric heater, the current is aplied form a central to an outer conducter, and travels outward from the center to the edge of the foam cylinder. This means the volume the current travels through as it nears the edge of the cylinder is much larger than at the center. For materials that heat up homogunously from resistive heating, heating is dependant on current per volume. This means one would expect significantly less heating as one aproaches the edge of the cylinder, which is exactly the results found in the paper. The high temperatrures at the center of the element have nothing to do with the material, but rather with the design of the heater.
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Post by shiolle on Jul 12, 2017 8:50:00 GMT
1. Yes, there is a very good reason why armatrure shapes akin to this are chosen. The strakes at the side are to prevent arking as far as I'm aware (see this site). As for the curved design see this thread. This has nothing to do with the material an armature is made of however. 2. In the artical about the electric heater, the current is aplied form a central to an outer conducter, and travels outward from the center to the edge of the foam cylinder. This means the volume the current travels through as it nears the edge of the cylinder is much larger than at the center. For materials that heat up homogunously from resistive heating, heating is dependant on current per volume. This means one would expect significantly less heating as one aproaches the edge of the cylinder, which is exactly the results found in the paper. The high temperatrures at the center of the element have nothing to do with the material, but rather with the design of the heater. That's what I'm saying. Your armature will always have one shape or another that will disturb the flow of current and cause uneven heating, regardless of its material. As you can see, shapes close to what is considered optimal are no exceptions either. Much like airfoil theory where everything looks nice and efficient while you assume that airfoil has infinite length, and in reality as you might imagine that's never the case. You are talking about some ideal case. Still you still haven't provided any example where current and heat distribute uniformly in an armature of a railgun.
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