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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 4, 2017 5:02:51 GMT
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Post by vegemeister on Jul 4, 2017 5:13:00 GMT
Yeah, for some reason atomic bomb damage barely scales with yield, if the bombs are detonated at contact range. I think it does affect the radius of the splash damage, though.
I have a 1.38 Mt design that weighs only 164 kg, but I never use it because the effects are so underwhelming. Cluster-bombs containing several small nukes are far more effective, especially considering the cost of uranium.
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Post by AdmiralObvious on Jul 4, 2017 6:49:49 GMT
What's the fluency on the bombs? In theory that would be the primary influence on how "actually" powerful the explosion would be.
A low fluency bomb would be basically equivalent to a dirty bomb, while a high fluency bomb would be a true nuke.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 4, 2017 7:20:01 GMT
What's the fluency on the bombs? In theory that would be the primary influence on how "actually" powerful the explosion would be. A low fluency bomb would be basically equivalent to a dirty bomb, while a high fluency bomb would be a true nuke. The fluency can be ignored in this case. Since the explosion is contained within the ship and the energy of the explosion is the same, the damage done should be equivalent. That's not to say it should be the same, but the fact that the larger nuke does so much less damage. Look at it like a giant pipe bomb: provided the container can withstand detonation, the energy imparted is equal, regardless if I us TNT or the energy equivalent of a different explosive. This is true even for nukes. Since the gunship hull stays generally in tact, energy the imparted in both cases should be similar since the explosion energy is the same in both cases.
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Post by shiolle on Jul 4, 2017 7:29:26 GMT
Isn't that the same old bug that gave birth to the concept of multinuke in the first place? Nuclear fratricide has never worked in the game, but aside from that there are some strange effects with on contact detonation. It appears that nuclear explosion is not spherical, but instead there are several projections of damage effects onto the ship. At very close range they don't quite connect.
Also, I think that the game may be considering that in small nuclear weapons a greater portion of material undergoes fission.
Edit: damn those mobile keyboards.
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Post by AdmiralObvious on Jul 4, 2017 7:39:39 GMT
Isn't that the same old bug that gave birth to the concept of multinuke in the first place? Nuclear fratricide has never worked in the game, but aside from that there are somestrangeeffects with on contact detonation. It appears that nuclear explosion is not spherical, but instead there are several projections of daage effects ontothe ship. At very close range they don't quite connect. Also, I think that the game may be considing that in small nuclear weapons a greater portion of material undergoes fission. This makes quite a bit of sense. I also think it may have something to do with the way the game computes explosions. I assume it does what all games do and creates multiple ray casts. Larger nukes making more spaced, and more potent for the calculation rays, while the smaller nukes have more condensed, and less powerful rays applying smaller, but more even and, as a result more consistent and large scale of damage when all the pieces interlock.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 4, 2017 8:36:23 GMT
Thinking back, the games damage model seems to have problems with ultra high energy weapons. I have had problems with issues like this before (see childrenofadeadearth.boards.net/thread/1261/energy-loss-super-high-impacts and I don't know why, but this design doesn't seem to work unless I'm missing something. With a 5 ton payload, 5 MW wouldn't do much, so I thought it had to be at least 550 MW. Screenshot the page with the sliders if you get a chance. It would be cool if it works. Wattage is a measure of energy per time. The coil gun is over 500m long. Assuming constant acceleration, that would require to an acceleration of 571,210m/s² (or about 58Kg 0) and a force of almost 3GN. This leaves us with an acceleration time of 0.042s. Since the energy of the projectile is about 1.5TJ, this means the coil generates a ludicrous 35TW of power, using only 5.5MW giving it an efficiency of 6,493,506%. So yes, it breaks physics. On the topic of breaking stuff, I may have figured out what was happening with the armor. Even without wippel shield, the projectile seems to break up before hitting the armor, leaving multiple spots of glowing armor on hits. even penetrations or deflections have this effect, despite the projectile apparently remaining intact. Also, penetrations don't seem to leave entry holes or exit holes. Over all, little of the energy of the projectile seems to be damaging the armor at all, even if it is completely absorbed.
The strongest 10m thick armor I was able to find was nitrile rubber, which pretty much confirms that this guns interaction with armor is bugged, rather than some actual effect that happens in reality. As far as I can tell, hitting a 10m thick plate of something with one of these slugs should be somewhat akin to detonating a few hundred tons of TnT in the armor, which is obviously not the case. Edit: Hardness and density seem to decide how much damage is done. Soft low density material doesn't even begin to glow while absorbing these shots. The game obviously can't handle impacts at these high energies. )
As far as I can tell the game generalizes volumetric damage as multiple instances of point damage. This seems to work well with small projectiles at reasonable energies. For high energies and large damaging volumes (large nukes/coilguns rounds) the damage model seems to simply break, making massive amounts of energy simply vanish.
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Post by shiolle on Jul 4, 2017 13:22:32 GMT
Thinking back, the games damage model seems to have problems with ultra high energy weapons. I have had problems with issues like this before As far as I can tell the game generalizes volumetric damage as multiple instances of point damage. This seems to work well with small projectiles at reasonable energies. For high energies and large damaging volumes (large nukes/coilguns rounds) the damage model seems to simply break, making massive amounts of energy simply vanish. While I don't necessary disagree with you, some of your conclusions seem dubious to me. First, I don't think that using ray cast for simulating damage has anything to do with energy distribution or conservation. Second, why do you think that the whole energy of your projectile should manifest as 'damage'? For example, both elastic collision and inelastic collisions completely conserve all kinetic energy of the system. They are ideal cases but the point is, only a portion of energy becomes heat and deformation. How exactly that energy is distributed is the "meat" of damage modeling, but it has nothing to do with ray cast or bounding sphere or any other collision model. Here is my theory of how this all works. I agree that the whole damage allocation is based upon a simplest case: a slug (lets call it a fragment) impacting armor. At the point of impact it it leaves a pattern (actually two patterns, one for heat and one for holes). Everything else is based on that, and under the hood nuclear blasts, fragmentation rounds, lasers and simple slugs all use this effect. This leaves questions on how exactly a warhead with thousands of fragments is simulated; I doubt the game does collision detection for all of them. I think there is a clue in the CoaDE blog, and it is this: QSwitched has said that most of these types are modeled along with projectile and parts of armor turning into plasma. So I think the pattern a point impact leaves on armor or module is dependent on its type and initial energy. It determines then will the impact proceed further, and if so, which pattern will it take, depending on whether it has turned into plasma or acquired more material and energy from the current layer. Usually the pattern grows as the fragment goes for layer to layer, but often at some point it just becomes a heat pattern without penetration. It is quite conceivable that a dense thin slug will never shatter or turn into plasma, penetrate both sides of the ship still carrying considerable energy. The energy is lost, as you've said for the purpose of damage allocation, but this is accurate. I think I read somewhere that modules are a different story. The modules have complex composition which was too hard to accurately model. So a module has three states: undamaged, damaged and completely gone. It becomes damaged when its skin is penetrated (which is just the same as a single layer of armor). I don't know under which condition the module is gone completely. The point is, a fragment cannot penetrate a module and continue onward. If the skin of the module is penetrated, the fragment either damages the module or removes it completely. I don't know if modules have hidden HP or it can absorb a certain amount of energy based on volume or something else. If this is true, then modules can really lead to energy truly vanishing. On the topic of breaking stuff, I may have figured out what was happening with the armor. Even without wippel shield, the projectile seems to break up before hitting the armor, leaving multiple spots of glowing armor on hits. even penetrations or deflections have this effect, despite the projectile apparently remaining intact. Just a note here: when a projectile bounces, it doesn't mean it won't leave a mark on the surface of the armor. The heat will also dissipate from the point of impact proportionally to heat conductance of the material. I am not sure how realistic the specific situation you describe is, but it's not either bounce with no energy loss or all energy converted into heat and deformation. Also, penetrations don't seem to leave entry holes or exit holes. Over all, little of the energy of the projectile seems to be damaging the armor at all, even if it is completely absorbed. Likewise, it is a perfectly realistic scenario where a projectile splashes against the armor heating it but without leaving a hole. Whether it will heat it enough to glow is another matter. My intuition tells me it will penetrate the armor or shatter long before it heats it enough to glow in case of physical projectile, but I of course may be mistaken.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 4, 2017 14:43:26 GMT
shiolle , I am perfectly aware of the fact that energy is not turned into damage. The cases I brought up showcase two problems: 1. The large coilgun, firing 5t slugs with 1.5TJ of energy did less damage than rounds with less energy. And it did not bounce, as this would have been visible. The round was always swallowed by the armor, with no internal damage. Notable was the fact that even the firs layer of armor showed multiple impact points, meaning the projectile effectively shattered before impact. Further more, the lack of internal damage or ricochet means all the energy was dumped into the armor. At 1.5TJ of projectile energy, this means that 10m of nitrile rubber can withstand an internal explosion equivalent to 300 tons of TNT, but can't stop a 5kg KKV at 5km/s? While your points are generally valid, it is quite obvious that the nitrile rubber should not be able to withstand that impact. Nor should anything that can't be classed as an asteroid once rendered inert. 2. The problem with the ricochets on my super high velocity railgun is this: ricochets are occurring at almost 90° angle of incident with rounds traveling above 1% the speed of light. All this happens over a total path length of roughly 15m and the projectile exits with little velocity loss. The problem here isn't loss of energy or momentum. The issue is that the acceleration needed in the armor in order to achieve such a ricochet would cause pressure on both projectile and armor would be in the range of hundreds to thousands of yotta pascals. Just to be clear, this between one to two orders of magnitude beyond the pressure required for electron degeneracy ( ~30TPa according to this book). No collision like this will ever by anything other than almost completely in elastic, because this pressure will not just smash the structure of whatever material the armor or projectile is, it will literally squeeze the electrons off of the constituent atoms. The type of impact qswitched needs to simulate is has nothing to do with the types shown. Rather, what would actually occurs here, apart from plasma shocking, is cavitation.
As for what's happening in the game: the damage model is fairly obviously based on ray traces causing point damage, with as few rays as possible. For the coilguns, I believe the game realizes that one ray trace is not enough for 20m diameter disk, and tries to break it up into multiple rays, but on these scales it messes up some how ( I'd venture that there is a max number of rays, which cannot adequately approximate such a large surface). Similarly, I believe that nukes use ray traces to damage. In this case there is probably something causing lower densities of ray casts causing less damage on target or perhaps a problem were some rays simply disappear.
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Post by dwwolf on Jul 4, 2017 14:53:29 GMT
Adding nukes to manned spaceships is an easy way to test effects.....
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 4, 2017 14:58:01 GMT
Adding nukes to manned spaceships is an easy way to test effects..... It isn't, because the game treats damage to the ship from itself differently than damage from an outside source. editIn some cases, as seen with shrapnel caused by a ship breaking not damaging other ships. It's impossible to tell if there is a difference or not unless qswitched tells us, so until we know I'll test weapons with these effects to ensure accuracy in tests.
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Post by shiolle on Jul 4, 2017 15:49:40 GMT
shiolle , I am perfectly aware of the fact that energy is not turned into damage. The cases I brought up showcase two problems: 1. The large coilgun, firing 5t slugs with 1.5TJ of energy did less damage than rounds with less energy. And it did not bounce, as this would have been visible. The round was always swallowed by the armor, with no internal damage. Notable was the fact that even the firs layer of armor showed multiple impact points, meaning the projectile effectively shattered before impact. Further more, the lack of internal damage or ricochet means all the energy was dumped into the armor. At 1.5TJ of projectile energy, this means that 10m of nitrile rubber can withstand an internal explosion equivalent to 300 tons of TNT, but can't stop a 5kg KKV at 5km/s? While your points are generally valid, it is quite obvious that the nitrile rubber should not be able to withstand that impact. Nor should anything that can't be classed as an asteroid once rendered inert. You've accelerated 5 tons to 774.6 km/s or am i misunderstanding something? 2. The problem with the ricochets on my super high velocity railgun is this: ricochets are occurring at almost 90° angle of incident with rounds traveling above 1% the speed of light. All this happens over a total path length of roughly 15m and the projectile exits with little velocity loss. The problem here isn't loss of energy or momentum. The issue is that the acceleration needed in the armor in order to achieve such a ricochet would cause pressure on both projectile and armor would be in the range of hundreds to thousands of yotta pascals. Just to be clear, this between one to two orders of magnitude beyond the pressure required for electron degeneracy ( ~30TPa according to this book). No collision like this will ever by anything other than almost completely in elastic, because this pressure will not just smash the structure of whatever material the armor or projectile is, it will literally squeeze the electrons off of the constituent atoms. The type of impact qswitched needs to simulate is has nothing to do with the types shown. Rather, what would actually occurs here, apart from plasma shocking, is cavitation. This is a 1 gram projectile in the railgun you've linked, right? As for what's happening in the game: the damage model is fairly obviously based on ray traces causing point damage, with as few rays as possible. I don't think this is the case. I think ray traces can cause area damage. For the coilguns, I believe the game realizes that one ray trace is not enough for 20m diameter disk, and tries to break it up into multiple rays, but on these scales it messes up some how ( I'd venture that there is a max number of rays, which cannot adequately approximate such a large surface). Similarly, I believe that nukes use ray traces to damage. In this case there is probably something causing lower densities of ray casts causing less damage on target or perhaps a problem were some rays simply disappear. I'm not sure what happens with the coilgun, but if you look at your second screenshot, you will notice that the single nuke most likely produced exactly six rays in six directions.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 4, 2017 17:52:27 GMT
shiolle , I am perfectly aware of the fact that energy is not turned into damage. The cases I brought up showcase two problems: 1. The large coilgun, firing 5t slugs with 1.5TJ of energy did less damage than rounds with less energy. And it did not bounce, as this would have been visible. The round was always swallowed by the armor, with no internal damage. Notable was the fact that even the firs layer of armor showed multiple impact points, meaning the projectile effectively shattered before impact. Further more, the lack of internal damage or ricochet means all the energy was dumped into the armor. At 1.5TJ of projectile energy, this means that 10m of nitrile rubber can withstand an internal explosion equivalent to 300 tons of TNT, but can't stop a 5kg KKV at 5km/s? While your points are generally valid, it is quite obvious that the nitrile rubber should not be able to withstand that impact. Nor should anything that can't be classed as an asteroid once rendered inert. You've accelerated 5 tons to 774.6 km/s or am i misunderstanding something? 2. The problem with the ricochets on my super high velocity railgun is this: ricochets are occurring at almost 90° angle of incident with rounds traveling above 1% the speed of light. All this happens over a total path length of roughly 15m and the projectile exits with little velocity loss. The problem here isn't loss of energy or momentum. The issue is that the acceleration needed in the armor in order to achieve such a ricochet would cause pressure on both projectile and armor would be in the range of hundreds to thousands of yotta pascals. Just to be clear, this between one to two orders of magnitude beyond the pressure required for electron degeneracy ( ~30TPa according to this book). No collision like this will ever by anything other than almost completely in elastic, because this pressure will not just smash the structure of whatever material the armor or projectile is, it will literally squeeze the electrons off of the constituent atoms. The type of impact qswitched needs to simulate is has nothing to do with the types shown. Rather, what would actually occurs here, apart from plasma shocking, is cavitation. This is a 1 gram projectile in the railgun you've linked, right? As for what's happening in the game: the damage model is fairly obviously based on ray traces causing point damage, with as few rays as possible. I don't think this is the case. I think ray traces can cause area damage. For the coilguns, I believe the game realizes that one ray trace is not enough for 20m diameter disk, and tries to break it up into multiple rays, but on these scales it messes up some how ( I'd venture that there is a max number of rays, which cannot adequately approximate such a large surface). Similarly, I believe that nukes use ray traces to damage. In this case there is probably something causing lower densities of ray casts causing less damage on target or perhaps a problem were some rays simply disappear. I'm not sure what happens with the coilgun, but if you look at your second screenshot, you will notice that the single nuke most likely produced exactly six rays in six directions. -for the coil: v=sqrt(2E/m) for 1.5TJ at 5t that gives you a velocity of about 24.5km/s. The point is moot, however, since the coilgun no longer works, as it was based off of pre capacitor coilguns, which were very obviously broken. -Yes -By point damage I meant that the ray trace hits a point and causes damage in an area (circle in this case) around that point without direct relation to any other ray trace and thus point. For practical in game purpose, this is area damage, but since all calculations are done for the point, rather than the area from an implementation standpoint (thus any errors/bugs/glitches would pertain to the point, rather than the area), it makes more sense to point damage. The difference to true area or even volumetric damage models, is that in these models all ray traces that pass hit/through an area/volume (from one source to all source, depending on how in depth you want to get) may interact and/or be put into relation. For the nuke example, a nuke with true area damage would check what the flow of gas/radiation through an area/volume should be, then applies damage representing that flow to that area either by chopping the area into smaller areas and assigning values to those segements or by ray tracing from the explosion to the area and assigning damage values to the rays depending on where they hit (difference here: damage assigned to rays depending on where they hit rather than damage being assigned to an area by the ray that hits it). -I'll hazard a guess (and this is really only speculation) that the nuke sent out a few more ray traces, but most didn't effect the ship. I can't realy think of any other explanations right now, because having smaller nukes send out more ray traces makes no sense from both a physical and implementation standpoint, as the reason to reduce ray traces would be to reduce lag which only makes sense for weapons you expect to be spamed: small nukes.
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