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Post by lawson on Feb 9, 2017 5:54:24 GMT
The alternative method is you huck dumb unguided cargo that has to be caught on the other end. The receiver has to dock with the cargo in hyperbolic orbit and then do the burns to bring the cargo to whatever orbit is required. Unguided and unchaperoned cargo works in peacetime too. But what are you going to do unless you build an entirely new cargo fleet? I've considered prototyping a Barge/Tug cargo system but haven't gotten around to it yet. I expect this to work especially well with heavy cargo that can tolerate long transit times. Basically anything that can wait to be sent on Holman transfer. (i.e. the yearly delivery of hydrogen from Jupiter, etc.) Fast cargo and passengers would go on >100Km/s MPD ships that can get anywhere in less than 6 months. Both types of shipping use the exhaust velocity of >10GW MPD's to maximize the utilization of expensive crew and reactors while minimizing reaction mass consumption.
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Post by bdcarrillo on Feb 9, 2017 12:08:33 GMT
Wouldn't unmanned/unguided cargo be able to achieve stealth?
Assuming temperature insensitive cargo, you wouldn't need a power source, thus a ship essentially as cold as space. I suppose you could look for a spectral shift in the optical wavelengths, but it wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb in the infrared.
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Post by ash19256 on Feb 9, 2017 16:13:26 GMT
In response to bdcarrillo , no. There is no way to achieve stealth in space, even with a dead spacecraft drifting out into deep space, due to both solar output (sunlight is going to heat it up at least a little, and it's going to be visible due to any reflected light), and also due to the fact that any unmanned cargo ships are still going to need to have electronic components on board which aren't temperature insensitive and do still need a power source of some sort.
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Post by kitten on Feb 9, 2017 16:51:20 GMT
I don't think there's any viable way to achieve convoy battles such as those of WWII. With lasers capable of accurately sniping from the next moon over, nukes that could detonate tens of kilometres away and still cripple a soft cargo ship, and other fun things, it's simply not realistic to be able to protect a convoy. The best way to beat a blockade will be to proactive find and destroy the blockaders; the second best way is fast ships on unpredictable vectors. In response to bdcarrillo , no. There is no way to achieve stealth in space, even with a dead spacecraft drifting out into deep space, due to both solar output (sunlight is going to heat it up at least a little, and it's going to be visible due to any reflected light), and also due to the fact that any unmanned cargo ships are still going to need to have electronic components on board which aren't temperature insensitive and do still need a power source of some sort. It's a bit of a simplistic view though. "Stealth" is a very relative concept; nothing is invisible but some things are more visible than others. One ship might broadcast its position to the crudest sensors within a light-year while the other might only be detected when it's less than 1Mm away from a high-resolution sensor. That's a pretty big difference, especially when it comes to planning interception missions. That said, cargo ships need to burn at certain points (and burns are visible from very far) and they're presumably travelling along known, high importance routes. It's going to be hard to hide them, especially since their burn points are basically known—they have to deal with orbital mechanics that are very predictable.
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Post by Enderminion on Feb 9, 2017 16:58:42 GMT
yes, A ship sized decoy and a real ship trying to look like a hole in space, the real ship, if you look for it is there but there is a ship sized decoy trying to be spotted right by it, so where are you looking?
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Post by kitten on Feb 9, 2017 17:09:44 GMT
yes, A ship sized decoy and a real ship trying to look like a hole in space, the real ship, if you look for it is there but there is a ship sized decoy trying to be spotted right by it, so where are you looking? Decoys might distract the opponents for a while, though it probably will stop working once they figure it out. Also, remember we're (presumably) talking about civillian cargo ships; they're not designed for fighting, or even for avoiding fights. Merhcant ships tend to be designed to haul as much cargo as cheaply as possible, and little else.
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Post by bdcarrillo on Feb 9, 2017 19:01:38 GMT
Hmm.. So flinging unmanned/unguided/unpowered cargo boxes around may not be the best idea. There may be some usefulness for short-range material hauls, but not interplanetary routes.
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Post by Easy on Feb 9, 2017 22:26:04 GMT
Wouldn't unmanned/unguided cargo be able to achieve stealth? Assuming temperature insensitive cargo, you wouldn't need a power source, thus a ship essentially as cold as space. I suppose you could look for a spectral shift in the optical wavelengths, but it wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb in the infrared. It still gets heated by the Sun and reflects that light. So it can be as stealthy as an untracked asteroid of similar size. The surface finish matters along with other details. Of course the launch is not stealthy. In the end there can be stealth in space, but you need to be a little more clever than simply running cold.
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Post by Easy on Feb 9, 2017 22:40:14 GMT
Hmm.. So flinging unmanned/unguided/unpowered cargo boxes around may not be the best idea. There may be some usefulness for short-range material hauls, but not interplanetary routes. The disadvantage of a ballistic cargo container is the launching ship has to reverse course in high orbit and then travel to wherever it is needed. There is a second tug on the receiving end. It docks with the cargo in high orbit and then maneuvers the cargo to its destination. You end up having two ships make two large burns at each planet. One burn with the cargo and one with only the tug. There is an advantage. The tug crew stays at their favorite planet and doesn't spend months to years in transit. You can have multiple cargo containers spaced out. So two planets, two tugs in between, four months transit and one week for each tug to grab or launch a container and be ready for the next. This means you can have a container arrive or depart every week. 4*4=16 containers and two tugs and two crews. See how that can be an advantage over 2 cargo ships and two crews, one arrives every two months?
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Post by bigbombr on Feb 9, 2017 22:47:47 GMT
Hmm.. So flinging unmanned/unguided/unpowered cargo boxes around may not be the best idea. There may be some usefulness for short-range material hauls, but not interplanetary routes. The disadvantage of a ballistic cargo container is the launching ship has to reverse course in high orbit and then travel to wherever it is needed. There is a second tug on the receiving end. It docks with the cargo in high orbit and then maneuvers the cargo to its destination. You end up having two ships make two large burns at each planet. One burn with the cargo and one with only the tug. There is an advantage. The tug crew stays at their favorite planet and doesn't spend months to years in transit. You can have multiple cargo containers spaced out. So two planets, two tugs in between, four months transit and one week for each tug to grab or launch a container and be ready for the next. This means you can have a container arrive or depart every week. 4*4=16 containers and two tugs and two crews. See how that can be an advantage over 2 cargo ships and two crews, one arrives every two months? Why not unmanned cargovesssels? Combat craft need a crew, but cargo doesn't.
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Post by newageofpower on Feb 9, 2017 23:01:04 GMT
It still gets heated by the Sun and reflects that light. So it can be as stealthy as an untracked asteroid of similar size. The surface finish matters along with other details. The Hydrogen Steamer is an exquisitely stealthy design, resembling a hole in space far more than any asteroid. Of course, its ludicrously impractical for civillian shipping.
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Post by Easy on Feb 9, 2017 23:01:37 GMT
The disadvantage of a ballistic cargo container is the launching ship has to reverse course in high orbit and then travel to wherever it is needed. There is a second tug on the receiving end. It docks with the cargo in high orbit and then maneuvers the cargo to its destination. You end up having two ships make two large burns at each planet. One burn with the cargo and one with only the tug. There is an advantage. The tug crew stays at their favorite planet and doesn't spend months to years in transit. You can have multiple cargo containers spaced out. So two planets, two tugs in between, four months transit and one week for each tug to grab or launch a container and be ready for the next. This means you can have a container arrive or depart every week. 4*4=16 containers and two tugs and two crews. See how that can be an advantage over 2 cargo ships and two crews, one arrives every two months? Why not unmanned cargovesssels? Combat craft need a crew, but cargo doesn't. unmanned would work just fine for both a traditional cargoship and for the flung container and tug. At least until something breaks.
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Post by Easy on Feb 9, 2017 23:08:14 GMT
It still gets heated by the Sun and reflects that light. So it can be as stealthy as an untracked asteroid of similar size. The surface finish matters along with other details. The Hydrogen Steamer is an exquisitely stealthy design, resembling a hole in space far more than any asteroid. Of course, its ludicrously impractical for civillian shipping. the hydrogen steamer is a great example of true stealth in space. It is much more a ballistic missile submarine doomsday weapon than anything else. Ludicrous that simple discovery would lead to a war but the home faction will likely paint the steamer reflective and tell it to go away.
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Post by theholyinquisition on Feb 10, 2017 1:24:44 GMT
It still gets heated by the Sun and reflects that light. So it can be as stealthy as an untracked asteroid of similar size. The surface finish matters along with other details. The Hydrogen Steamer is an exquisitely stealthy design, resembling a hole in space far more than any asteroid. Of course, its ludicrously impractical for civillian shipping. Call me crazy, but I think holes in space and 100 m frensel lens may be noticeable. A lot less noticeable, sure, but still.
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Post by newageofpower on Feb 10, 2017 3:17:32 GMT
Call me crazy, but I think holes in space and 100 m frensel lens may be noticeable. A lot less noticeable, sure, but still. You're not crazy - you're either right or you're wrong. How do you easily tell a hole in space from space, in a space combat setting? Go on, enlighten us.
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