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Post by theholyinquisition on Jan 8, 2017 5:39:16 GMT
From what I've read on the forum, the current meta is that lasers, drones, and missiles are the main weapons, with the missiles being either coilgun or regular launched, with NEFP warheads. The drones use railgun "sand" to destroy armor. How would I go about designing things for this meta?
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Post by jasonvance on Jan 8, 2017 6:19:10 GMT
Do you want module design tips or meta explanation? The things to min-max for are cost to effectiveness. How cheap can you make a useful anti-laser drone attacker missile, how cheap can you build an effective 1,000km laser (when including power and radiators), how cheap can you make a useful interceptor missile (must be cheaper than attacker missile). This forms the basic rock paper scissors of the current meta
Laser drones beat interceptor missiles (these are anti-missile missiles that are extremely cheap, lightly or not armored at all) attacker missiles beat laser drones (these are more expensive than interceptor missiles, well armored against lasers especially from frontal attack) interceptor missile beats attacker missile (they trade 1:1 but the interceptor is cheaper so you win by attrition)
Coilgun launchers are simply launch platforms for the missile itself (one can argue against/for their actual usefulness), NEFP warheads (or just flak / nukes) are just the payload for the missiles used, and railguns are the hipster thing as they require a metric fuck ton of micromanagement to do anything significant against a laser drone fleet since it will target one thing on its own and fire a few hundred useless rounds at it for 10 seconds while getting lasered to death. The only way to kill more than one target before being melted by a laser array is to manually micromanage the railguns spreading the damage around manually (probably one frame at a time with mass pausing). The problem is the AI will only switch targets once a target is destroyed, even assuming a really badass railgun firing 100km/s it still takes 10 seconds for the first projectile to land and attempt to kill the target (and likely will). Without micromanagement best case scenario for railguns is 10 second time to kill per target with no micro (and 99% wasted shots). With micromanagement it gets a little murkier. If railguns became more mainstream emergency high thrust boosters could be added to laser drones to counter them by doing a hard burn after melting the gun to attempt to dodge lethal (usually laser drones only have a valid lethal target zone of a few cm down the spine, you will likely lose a giant laser turret though, but 1 laser out of 20 for a ship is usually a fair trade (which is why I personally don't include them in the rock paper scissors atm).
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Post by midnightdreary on Jan 8, 2017 11:26:24 GMT
I currently use two different lines of my "products." One is centered around min-maxing the cost effectiveness, like jasonvance mentioned above. I consider this what I could use in the campaigns and beat any stock ships with ease. My second, premium, line of products is pure performance, with no expense spared. (with some luxuries spared, such as maintaining some level of armor). A simple rail gun comparison:
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elukka
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by elukka on Jan 8, 2017 11:49:52 GMT
Is cost currently based on anything except materials? It seems a bit off to me that a ship's armor will typically be more expensive than all the reactors, lasers, and other highly complex and expensive systems onboard. It doesn't seem to be a very meaningful measure of a ship's or module's cost if so.
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Post by bigbombr on Jan 8, 2017 13:05:42 GMT
Is cost currently based on anything except materials? It seems a bit off to me that a ship's armor will typically be more expensive than all the reactors, lasers, and other highly complex and expensive systems onboard. It doesn't seem to be a very meaningful measure of a ship's or module's cost if so. Manufacturing costs are considered extremely small due to advances in construction (additive manufacturing, extreme automation, orbital factories, ...) except for fibers. The cost is mainly determined by solar abundance (how much is there of this stuff in the solar system) and ease of transportation (hence why hydrogen is more expensive than methane, despite hydrogen being much more common, as hydrogen is considerably less dense and thus needs much larger tanks to transport).
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Post by randomletters on Jan 8, 2017 14:05:38 GMT
Is cost currently based on anything except materials? It seems a bit off to me that a ship's armor will typically be more expensive than all the reactors, lasers, and other highly complex and expensive systems onboard. It doesn't seem to be a very meaningful measure of a ship's or module's cost if so. It breaks down even further when you compare the price of modules to the price of fuel, but there's really no way to meaningfully and "realistically" represent manufacturing costs without a whole lot of assumptions and guesswork.
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Post by David367th on Jan 8, 2017 14:17:12 GMT
Also wages for people aren't really accounted for, unless we're forcing slaves to build and operate our capital ships.
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Post by Rocket Witch on Jan 8, 2017 21:25:56 GMT
Also wages for people aren't really accounted for, unless we're forcing slaves to build and operate our capital ships. Which, in the setting of CDE, we probably are.
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Post by David367th on Jan 8, 2017 21:42:52 GMT
Also wages for people aren't really accounted for, unless we're forcing slaves to build and operate our capital ships. Which, in the setting of CDE, we probably are. I do not know what you of talk about comrade, most definitely you are mix up we with the bastard United Sol Alliance of Trade. We are the Republic of Free People after all, comrade.
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Post by theholyinquisition on Jan 8, 2017 21:57:31 GMT
Design tips. What material properties do I want for a given purpose, do I use NTRs for missiles/drones or not, what would be a good way to test new ideas, etc.
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Post by David367th on Jan 8, 2017 22:11:00 GMT
Design tips. What material properties do I want for a given purpose, do I use NTRs for missiles/drones or not, what would be a good way to test new ideas, etc. tessfield has a wonderful thread compliling just about the entire forums combined efforts into researching most systems and what's best for them as well as examples in the case of apophys ' reactors and my Completely Gratuitous Blue Laser TM. NTRs can be used for missiles/drones, if I remember right they are performance to weight orientated, where as combustion is high thrust. As for testbeds, I don't know if other people make ships from scratch but I use a disarmed Gunship for capital ship designs and Stinger for drone designs.
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Post by midnightdreary on Jan 9, 2017 1:01:44 GMT
Design tips. What material properties do I want for a given purpose, do I use NTRs for missiles/drones or not, what would be a good way to test new ideas, etc. tessfield has a wonderful thread compliling just about the entire forums combined efforts into researching most systems and what's best for them as well as examples in the case of apophys ' reactors and my Completely Gratuitous Blue Laser TM. NTRs can be used for missiles/drones, if I remember right they are performance to weight orientated, where as combustion is high thrust. As for testbeds, I don't know if other people make ships from scratch but I use a disarmed Gunship for capital ship designs and Stinger for drone designs. One thing I've also started doing, when I use someone else's designs (I almost exclusively use apophys' reactors, for example), is to name the component after the original creator. It keeps me from getting sued by Apophys Incorporated for copyright infringement. Kidding aside, it's a way to honor the hard work of the min-max community. I would one day like a way to "subscribe" to other people's products (like steam integration) so when I toss on their coil gun it gets updated as they continue to update the design as well.
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Post by nihilrex on Jan 17, 2017 3:02:46 GMT
tessfield has a wonderful thread compliling just about the entire forums combined efforts into researching most systems and what's best for them as well as examples in the case of apophys ' reactors and my Completely Gratuitous Blue Laser TM. NTRs can be used for missiles/drones, if I remember right they are performance to weight orientated, where as combustion is high thrust. As for testbeds, I don't know if other people make ships from scratch but I use a disarmed Gunship for capital ship designs and Stinger for drone designs. One thing I've also started doing, when I use someone else's designs (I almost exclusively use apophys' reactors, for example), is to name the component after the original creator. It keeps me from getting sued by Apophys Incorporated for copyright infringement. Kidding aside, it's a way to honor the hard work of the min-max community. I would one day like a way to "subscribe" to other people's products (like steam integration) so when I toss on their coil gun it gets updated as they continue to update the design as well. If nothing else, a site that would collect these and then let you add the things you want to a list, and output a single block so you could c\p it to userdesigns, would be lovely.
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Post by kitten on Jan 17, 2017 6:27:45 GMT
Design tips. What material properties do I want for a given purpose, do I use NTRs for missiles/drones or not, what would be a good way to test new ideas, etc. It's counterintuitive if you know what works where IRL, but in CoaDE fission tech scales downwards very well, so there really isn't anything too small for a NTR. NTR aren't litterally always the best thrusters for your drones and missiles, but they are the best thrusters in the game outside of very specialised cases (MPD for high endurance is the best known exception).
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Post by caiaphas on Jan 17, 2017 11:11:25 GMT
Design tips. What material properties do I want for a given purpose, do I use NTRs for missiles/drones or not, what would be a good way to test new ideas, etc. It's counterintuitive if you know what works where IRL, but in CoaDE fission tech scales downwards very well, so there really isn't anything too small for a NTR. NTR aren't litterally always the best thrusters for your drones and missiles, but they are the best thrusters in the game outside of very specialised cases (MPD for high endurance is the best known exception). From my (admittedly limited) understanding, the way it breaks down is that combustion rockets are the cheapest for small sub-meter-diameter missiles and drones but have correspondingly weaker performance as compared to everything else, MPDs are the undisputed kings of long-range endurance, NTRs have the best thrust-to-mass ratio of any rocket once you start putting more than a kilogram of fissiles in them, and resistojets are a nice midway point between high-thrust/limited-endurance NTRs and miserable-thrust/stupid-amounts-of-endurance MPDs, but they're best mostly for middle-weight drones. EDIT: also, what people generally do to get around the whole "MPDs have pathetic amounts of thrust" issue is to build their ships with a cluster of four or five NTRs, and the way the game handles packing, it lets you stick an MPD right in the middle without anything intersecting if you do it right. Just be sure to disable the NTRs before moving anywhere, and re-enable them when you need to dodge missiles. EDIT SECUNDUS: now that I think of it, once you start getting into the "dozens of gigawatts" range for MPDs their thrust-to-mass goes way up, so it's probably more accurate to say that NTRs offer far superior acceleration and thrust-to-mass once you take into account reactor mass.
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