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Post by teeth on Nov 15, 2016 6:04:06 GMT
I don't even use railguns anyways since my sole focus is microdrones. You know what's more broken than microdrones? Microdrones with RAILGUN or COILGUN. Practically instant death to any fleet that doesn't have gigawatt laser. But the gun on my current drones weighs 524 grams, any railgun of that weight is going to be a lot worse than the 1.51 km/s of the gun.
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Post by subunit on Nov 15, 2016 7:58:53 GMT
I don't even use railguns anyways since my sole focus is microdrones. You know what's more broken than microdrones? Microdrones with RAILGUN or COILGUN. Practically instant death to any fleet that doesn't have gigawatt laser. The fluff indicates that debris in militarily relevant orbits is swept by laser brooms, no? Most CoaDE fleets (all invasion fleets expecting to set up shop for months around a body they just blew up a bunch of crap around) will have big lasers on engineering ships at the very least.
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Post by leerooooooy on Nov 15, 2016 14:38:44 GMT
This is a good point. As it is I think lasers are going to end up pretty dominant and missiles and drones generally wont have enough mass to mount enough armor to close inside their engagement envelope. It would be nice to know if this is an artefact of the way they're modelled, like the way coilguns currently spit 100 nukes/second etc. I wouldn't be so sure. Lasers are good, but I wouldn't expect each and every tactical consideration to be solved by GW lasers. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Lasers are OP, no way around it. Choice between module-dooming accuracy at 1000km (large mirror) and ability to ablate several m 2 of armour in a few seconds (small mirror), limited cost and limited mass (less than 4 tons and 45kc for a 1GW laser), 100% accurate and impossible to avoid, dodge, or mitigate... Only downside is the massive amount of radiators required. Even before 1.0.7 lasers were disgustingly good, now that silica aerogel is fixed there is no way to counter them.
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Post by redparadize on Nov 15, 2016 15:26:03 GMT
I wouldn't be so sure. Lasers are good, but I wouldn't expect each and every tactical consideration to be solved by GW lasers. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Lasers are OP, no way around it. Choice between module-dooming accuracy at 1000km (large mirror) and ability to ablate several m 2 of armour in a few seconds (small mirror), limited cost and limited mass (less than 4 tons and 45kc for a 1GW laser), 100% accurate and impossible to avoid, dodge, or mitigate... Only downside is the massive amount of radiators required. Even before 1.0.7 lasers were disgustingly good, now that silica aerogel is fixed there is no way to counter them. Laser aren't OP, they are balanced by their cost. I can easily defeat 6 Solar lance modified to fire at 1000km using drones and missiles. It will cost me 600kc to 1.2mc to get rid of 6 platform that cost +100mc.
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Post by wafflestoo on Nov 15, 2016 16:44:31 GMT
I wouldn't be so sure. Lasers are good, but I wouldn't expect each and every tactical consideration to be solved by GW lasers. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Lasers are OP, no way around it. Choice between module-dooming accuracy at 1000km (large mirror) and ability to ablate several m 2 of armour in a few seconds (small mirror), limited cost and limited mass (less than 4 tons and 45kc for a 1GW laser), 100% accurate and impossible to avoid, dodge, or mitigate... Only downside is the massive amount of radiators required. Even before 1.0.7 lasers were disgustingly good, now that silica aerogel is fixed there is no way to counter them. Check out the "science on thermal armor" thread. Redparadize may be onto something.
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Post by Durandal on Nov 15, 2016 17:30:28 GMT
I wouldn't be so sure. Lasers are good, but I wouldn't expect each and every tactical consideration to be solved by GW lasers. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Lasers are OP, no way around it. Choice between module-dooming accuracy at 1000km (large mirror) and ability to ablate several m 2 of armour in a few seconds (small mirror), limited cost and limited mass (less than 4 tons and 45kc for a 1GW laser), 100% accurate and impossible to avoid, dodge, or mitigate... Only downside is the massive amount of radiators required. Even before 1.0.7 lasers were disgustingly good, now that silica aerogel is fixed there is no way to counter them. Graphite armor mate. Also, working 1Mm missile algorithms
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Post by subunit on Nov 15, 2016 19:16:23 GMT
I wouldn't be so sure. Lasers are good, but I wouldn't expect each and every tactical consideration to be solved by GW lasers. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Lasers are OP, no way around it. Choice between module-dooming accuracy at 1000km (large mirror) and ability to ablate several m 2 of armour in a few seconds (small mirror), limited cost and limited mass (less than 4 tons and 45kc for a 1GW laser), 100% accurate and impossible to avoid, dodge, or mitigate... Only downside is the massive amount of radiators required. Even before 1.0.7 lasers were disgustingly good, now that silica aerogel is fixed there is no way to counter them. The way to counter them is closure rate and rotation. Get an intercept that passes within the engagement envelope of your lasboat killer at 5+ km/s, roll it all the way in on the merge (so the AI can't concentrate on any one armor spot), and the laser will not have enough time to kill all your guns.
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Post by leerooooooy on Nov 15, 2016 20:08:31 GMT
Lasers are OP, no way around it. Choice between module-dooming accuracy at 1000km (large mirror) and ability to ablate several m 2 of armour in a few seconds (small mirror), limited cost and limited mass (less than 4 tons and 45kc for a 1GW laser), 100% accurate and impossible to avoid, dodge, or mitigate... Only downside is the massive amount of radiators required. Even before 1.0.7 lasers were disgustingly good, now that silica aerogel is fixed there is no way to counter them. Laser aren't OP, they are balanced by their cost. I can easily defeat 6 Solar lance modified to fire at 1000km using drones and missiles. It will cost me 600kc to 1.2mc to get rid of 6 platform that cost +100mc. Stock Lasers suck big time, so do stock power plants.
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Post by leerooooooy on Nov 15, 2016 20:12:27 GMT
Lasers are OP, no way around it. Choice between module-dooming accuracy at 1000km (large mirror) and ability to ablate several m 2 of armour in a few seconds (small mirror), limited cost and limited mass (less than 4 tons and 45kc for a 1GW laser), 100% accurate and impossible to avoid, dodge, or mitigate... Only downside is the massive amount of radiators required. Even before 1.0.7 lasers were disgustingly good, now that silica aerogel is fixed there is no way to counter them. The way to counter them is closure rate and rotation. Get an intercept that passes within the engagement envelope of your lasboat killer at 5+ km/s, roll it all the way in on the merge (so the AI can't concentrate on any one armor spot), and the laser will not have enough time to kill all your guns. 1000 km divided by 5 km/s gives you 200 seconds. Even when silica aerogel was broken, 2 cm of it on a turret would melt in a split second under "just" 2 GW of violet lasers. You can't even armor weapon barrels decently, you can't have radiators made of silica aerogel, and even then one can just target engines and wait a few seconds to try for a crew kill
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Post by redparadize on Nov 15, 2016 20:41:03 GMT
Stock Lasers suck big time, so do stock power plants. Indeed, but if you can do a ship/drone that cost under 600kc and have the firepower of 4 solar lance you will have prove my strategy to be wrong. If laser scale up better than missile/drone spamming, then maybe on large scale laser become a effective defense, I however do not think it is the case.
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Post by randomletters on Nov 16, 2016 1:06:10 GMT
Stock designs are bad.
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Post by subunit on Nov 16, 2016 6:29:48 GMT
The way to counter them is closure rate and rotation. Get an intercept that passes within the engagement envelope of your lasboat killer at 5+ km/s, roll it all the way in on the merge (so the AI can't concentrate on any one armor spot), and the laser will not have enough time to kill all your guns. 1000 km divided by 5 km/s gives you 200 seconds. Even when silica aerogel was broken, 2 cm of it on a turret would melt in a split second under "just" 2 GW of violet lasers. You can't even armor weapon barrels decently, you can't have radiators made of silica aerogel, and even then one can just target engines and wait a few seconds to try for a crew kill You don't expose your turrets or your rads on the merge, you hide behind your armored nosecone: This is my current B&Z craft- admittedly the coilgun is broken, but you could probably replace it with something else and achieve the same effect. I have used two of these guys, with the 4 guns around the neck and all gear hidden behind the nosecone: to gank 5 of these broadside orbital brooms: with a 4 km/s intercept. Lost I think 3/8 total of the guns doing it but all 5 of the lasboats were literally chainsawed in half by NEFPs through the front armor. By the time the target is visible to the ring of 4 coilguns around the Spad's "throat" behind the nosecone, it's within 100km or so, and as it's spinning each turret in turn engages targets that are in their 1/4 of the sky. Works good, YMMV depending on what you're shooting up.
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Post by leerooooooy on Nov 16, 2016 8:47:35 GMT
Stock Lasers suck big time, so do stock power plants. Indeed, but if you can do a ship/drone that cost under 600kc and have the firepower of 4 solar lance you will have prove my strategy to be wrong. If laser scale up better than missile/drone spamming, then maybe on large scale laser become a effective defense, I however do not think it is the case. Stock solar lance puts out 11.1 MW per 172 Mc, and it is M = 3.15 and wavelenght = 1060 nm Attachment DeletedOld and kind of unoptimized, this outputs 44.5 MW times 30 (aka 1.335 GW) for 65.7 Mc, at M = 3 and wavelenght = 532 nm That means 600 kc get you 13.35 MW at 532 nm, a fair bit better than 4 stock lances at long range thanks to better focusing. Get violet lasers and it is even mor ridiculous Also 11 km/s of Dv
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Post by leerooooooy on Nov 16, 2016 8:48:51 GMT
1000 km divided by 5 km/s gives you 200 seconds. Even when silica aerogel was broken, 2 cm of it on a turret would melt in a split second under "just" 2 GW of violet lasers. You can't even armor weapon barrels decently, you can't have radiators made of silica aerogel, and even then one can just target engines and wait a few seconds to try for a crew kill You don't expose your turrets or your rads on the merge, you hide behind your armored nosecone: This is my current B&Z craft- admittedly the coilgun is broken, but you could probably replace it with something else and achieve the same effect. I have used two of these guys, with the 4 guns around the neck and all gear hidden behind the nosecone: to gank 5 of these broadside orbital brooms: with a 4 km/s intercept. Lost I think 3/8 total of the guns doing it but all 5 of the lasboats were literally chainsawed in half by NEFPs through the front armor. By the time the target is visible to the ring of 4 coilguns around the Spad's "throat" behind the nosecone, it's within 100km or so, and as it's spinning each turret in turn engages targets that are in their 1/4 of the sky. Works good, YMMV depending on what you're shooting up. low acceleration and low Dv, 10/10 would outrun. The design posted above has thrice the Dv for 1/4 of the cost
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Post by subunit on Nov 16, 2016 9:16:42 GMT
low acceleration and low Dv, 10/10 would outrun. The design posted above has thrice the Dv for 1/4 of the cost They're called propellant tankers, man. A boom and zoom fleet doesn't go anywhere without a tanker. Anyway, I'm using mostly stock-type components, so it's nothing fancy, and only designed to kill that particular lasboat as piloted by the AI. The AI doesn't seem to maneuver against intercepts so I have no idea how I would test anything else. The point is that you can tank large numbers of 1GW lasers across 1000km if your armor configuration hides the modules and rotation dissipates heat. I'm not claiming my stuff is anything special- I'm sure someone else has a much better design that counters GW laser sniping even more reliably and at higher powers.
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