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Post by whiteweasel on Jul 7, 2018 16:48:49 GMT
I've been having a lot of fun with the module designer, but I have a few questions when it comes to railguns and coilguns. 1) I know they are different mechanically, but what are the pros and cons of each? 2) While trying to keep a high muzzle velocity (>6 km/s), should I focus on mass or rate of fire? Right now I have two polar opposites in designs. My "sandblaster" is actually pretty good at destroying enemy modules, but sucks for armor damage and is rather performance intensive. My other design is a coilgun that fires a massive projectile, but it's rate of fire is just too slow to maintain a meaningful DPS. For mass and rate of fire, what would be considered ideal for a heavy hitting weapon?
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Post by Rocket Witch on Jul 7, 2018 20:37:16 GMT
Railguns have higher velocity; coilguns can shoot larger masses more easily.
Usually railguns are preferred, and these usually take the form of 1g sandblasters. This is because minimising time to target is the single most decisive factor in a dumb weapon's effectiveness in space. Between a pair of closing gunships, all other things being equal the first to cross the line where its engines no longer put out enough thrust to evade the enemy's fire has lost 9/10 times. However this does assume the ships would actually be trying to close with each other. Lasers/dones/missiles/etc. all complicate this assumption and so the question can become "what makes good CIWS" rather than "what makes good antiship gun" when nobody wants to get within a Gm of you before throwing ten thousand missiles your way.
Anyway, I'd say ~300ms reload and 50g is good for a heavy gun. Low rates of fire (>1s) usually result in underwhelming performance owing to the low chance to not only hit, but hit something vital and damage it. Given the prevalence of whipple shields, deep aerogel layers, and the effectivenss of extreme armour sloping, your projectiles either need to be very massive (meaning low velocity and/or ROF, so undesirable) or you simply need to dump as much energy into the target as quickly as possible (meaning high velocity sandblaster giving you range, ROF, and rapid albeit inefficient energy transfer). If you've got a gun that shoots homing projectiles that changes things a bit, but as far as basic tracer shooters go the sandblaster is the primary weapon. Note what you said about the sandblaster - good at destroying modules — once you destroy all the external modules the enemy is a non-threat, armour or not. Heavier guns are still useful for various purposes like sniping particular modules off with high accuracy at the start of an engagement, but I'd say density of fire is important to cover first before additions. Consider superguns to be your secondary/special/utility weapons.
By the way, high velocity in the context of many discussions here is >30kms. Just so you know where your designs might end up. :P
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Post by AdmiralObvious on Jul 8, 2018 1:53:31 GMT
I'm one of those weird people who prefer mass over fire rate, even though I know sandblasting is superior. I only mention that because it's pretty hilarious to shoot at a gunship with a school bus sized chunk of lead and watch the thing completely spin out of control and kill the crew.
If you actually want to "win" a gun on gun fight, you can't beat sandblasters because of how easy they are to propel stuff at (basically) relativistic speeds. No armor can beat a sandblaster that I've seen once it starts drilling down to the core of the ship, which they will do from repeated impact of the same area, unless your gun deflects, in which case they become MUCH less terrifying.
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Post by doctorsquared on Jul 8, 2018 2:42:34 GMT
RailgunsPros - - Can achieve very high muzzle velocities (upwards of 115 km/s in some larger guns)
- Encounters fewer overheating issues compared to coilguns per similar muzzle velocity
- Doesn't require a magnetic projectile, which opens up a wider variety of armature options.
Cons -
- Less efficient at firing heavier payloads
CoilgunsPros - - Can more effectively shoot heavier projectiles
- Can be more efficient than railguns at turning electricity into linear motion.
Cons -
- Faster muzzle velocities require smaller diameter wires and more turns in the wire, which leads to higher electrical resistance and "Barrel Will Shatter From Thermal Expansion Stress" errors.
- The projectile is limited to magnetic materials, which limits muzzle velocity and projectile size.
- Less weight-efficient than railguns with similar muzzle velocities.
Tips:- Hafnia, Diamond, Biaxially Oriented PET, and yes Water are all good dielectrics to use with Hafnia having the strongest dielectric you can get.
- Adjusting the separation between the parallel plates in your capacitor can yield some serious increases in performance without increasing charging time.
- Barrel Armor actually decreases the spread of your shots and improves weapon cooling. Putting a few centimeters of something stiff like Diamond around the barrel helps accuracy quite a bit.
- The Community Materials mod gives you highly conductive, sturdy, and heat-stable materials for making your rails and coils out of in the form of Tempered Copper, Beryllium Copper, and Zirconium Copper.
The only other suggestion I have is to try building a flak round and loading it into your sandblaster. A small 600mg flak bomb with a standard 1g fuse module won't bog down the gun's muzzle velocity and reload too much, greatly increases the effectiveness of the gun against drones and missiles, and addresses issues that heavier guns have where the projectiles occasionally travel through the same hole previous rounds punched through leading to over penetration. It also greatly increases the volume of fire since 35 fragments of metal traveling at 60 km/s is going to do a lot of damage.
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Post by whiteweasel on Jul 8, 2018 9:03:11 GMT
Thanks for all the info! The reason I wanted to try other designs was mostly because using a large number of sandblaster style guns causes frame drops, so using more sniper style guns or a happy middle ground would be great.
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Post by AtomHeartDragon on Jul 8, 2018 10:20:00 GMT
I wonder how realistic those tens or or hundreds km/s railguns actually are - rail/armaruee contact at those velocity isn't going to be pretty. That said even stock sandblasters (60 and 100MW turreted coilguns, 6mm railgun) are pretty damn effective at stripping everything outside of armour and, after tweaking for better accuracy, also become quite effective at drilling through.
When in doubt, you can always mix and match - given that during an intercept you are not going to keep your distance and that if there is any significant perpendicular component to your relative velocity, projectiles travelling at different velocities will impact from different angles (defeating sloping) mixed batter generally works better, especially in deep gravity wells.
Deep gravity wells also tremendously increase effectiveness of massive projectiles - if you are intercepting retrograde at some 30km/s relative (say, low Neptune orbit), it doesn't really matter if your gun adds 2 or 8km/s to your projectiles but whether your projectiles are 1g or 1kg will change a lot.
Overall, I like playing with stock components, if only because beating stock ships with hyperoptimized weapons feels like beating up a toddler.
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Post by whiteweasel on Jul 8, 2018 12:48:46 GMT
Wow, downloaded that off of the workshop, and that's an amazing gun, but man, does it turn things into a slide show. And yeah, i noticed halfnia is an amazing dielectric. That's what I use for my sandblaster currently. Any tips to optimize this (besides adding in a flak bomb payload?) Also I've made a fairly decent upgrade to the vanilla sniper coilgun.
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Post by picklesthedrummer on Jul 8, 2018 13:01:29 GMT
I've been having a lot of fun with the module designer, but I have a few questions when it comes to railguns and coilguns. 1) I know they are different mechanically, but what are the pros and cons of each? 2) While trying to keep a high muzzle velocity (>6 km/s), should I focus on mass or rate of fire? Right now I have two polar opposites in designs. My "sandblaster" is actually pretty good at destroying enemy modules, but sucks for armor damage and is rather performance intensive. My other design is a coilgun that fires a massive projectile, but it's rate of fire is just too slow to maintain a meaningful DPS. For mass and rate of fire, what would be considered ideal for a heavy hitting weapon? Something seems wrong with the gun on the left. Either it could get a much higher rate of fire by increasing loader power, or that's a capacitor coilgun. Capacitor coilguns (at least in my experience) are far less efficient and effective than capacitor railguns with similar stats. I find coilguns are better when you want to shoot a normal slug (instead of a payload) at speeds attainable without capacitors. Once capacitors or payloads are involved railguns seem better. As for the sandblaster, that could get through armor a lot better if it had better accuracy. Tiny projectiles seldom get through any reasonable armor in one shot, so you need a bunch of projectiles to hit the same spot. That's very likely to happen with something like 0.001° to 0.0001° deviation, but not with 0.01°. Any lower than 0.0001° and you start getting so accurate that it can struggle to take out radiators, just shooting straight through the ship at the base but missing the radiator itself.
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Post by dragonkid11 on Jul 8, 2018 14:17:51 GMT
I've been having a lot of fun with the module designer, but I have a few questions when it comes to railguns and coilguns. 1) I know they are different mechanically, but what are the pros and cons of each? 2) While trying to keep a high muzzle velocity (>6 km/s), should I focus on mass or rate of fire? Right now I have two polar opposites in designs. My "sandblaster" is actually pretty good at destroying enemy modules, but sucks for armor damage and is rather performance intensive. My other design is a coilgun that fires a massive projectile, but it's rate of fire is just too slow to maintain a meaningful DPS. For mass and rate of fire, what would be considered ideal for a heavy hitting weapon? Something seems wrong with the gun on the left. Either it could get a much higher rate of fire by increasing loader power, or that's a capacitor coilgun. Capacitor coilguns (at least in my experience) are far less efficient and effective than capacitor railguns with similar stats. I find coilguns are better when you want to shoot a normal slug (instead of a payload) at speeds attainable without capacitors. Once capacitors or payloads are involved railguns seem better. As for the sandblaster, that could get through armor a lot better if it had better accuracy. Tiny projectiles seldom get through any reasonable armor in one shot, so you need a bunch of projectiles to hit the same spot. That's very likely to happen with something like 0.001° to 0.0001° deviation, but not with 0.01°. Any lower than 0.0001° and you start getting so accurate that it can struggle to take out radiators, just shooting straight through the ship at the base but missing the radiator itself. I haven't actually try to make any EM gun without capacitor for a long time already. I'm not even sure if I can make one now.
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Post by Rocket Witch on Jul 8, 2018 14:21:44 GMT
The Community Materials mod gives you highly conductive, sturdy, and heat-stable materials for making your rails and coils out of in the form of Tempered Copper, Beryllium Copper, and Zirconium Copper. Beryllium and zirconium copper are stock. Some of the modded things to check out are aluminium beryllium and an aluminium boron fibre composite. Overall, I like playing with stock components, if only because beating stock ships with hyperoptimized weapons feels like beating up a toddler. So you don't beat up other players' designs from the workshop instead? It's a good way to pit one's design ethos against other kinds, too.
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Post by AtomHeartDragon on Jul 8, 2018 14:40:35 GMT
Something seems wrong with the gun on the left. Either it could get a much higher rate of fire by increasing loader power, or that's a capacitor coilgun. You can see the capacitor behind the magazine.
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Post by whiteweasel on Jul 8, 2018 14:50:41 GMT
Something seems wrong with the gun on the left. Either it could get a much higher rate of fire by increasing loader power, or that's a capacitor coilgun. Capacitor coilguns (at least in my experience) are far less efficient and effective than capacitor railguns with similar stats. I find coilguns are better when you want to shoot a normal slug (instead of a payload) at speeds attainable without capacitors. Once capacitors or payloads are involved railguns seem better. As for the sandblaster, that could get through armor a lot better if it had better accuracy. Tiny projectiles seldom get through any reasonable armor in one shot, so you need a bunch of projectiles to hit the same spot. That's very likely to happen with something like 0.001° to 0.0001° deviation, but not with 0.01°. Any lower than 0.0001° and you start getting so accurate that it can struggle to take out radiators, just shooting straight through the ship at the base but missing the radiator itself. The left one is wrong since I used the wrong screenshot: Also I've optimized my sandblaster, and made a heavy version of it.
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Post by AtomHeartDragon on Jul 8, 2018 14:52:25 GMT
The Community Materials mod gives you highly conductive, sturdy, and heat-stable materials for making your rails and coils out of in the form of Tempered Copper, Beryllium Copper, and Zirconium Copper. Beryllium and zirconium copper are stock. Some of the modded things to check out are aluminium beryllium and an aluminium boron fibre composite. Overall, I like playing with stock components, if only because beating stock ships with hyperoptimized weapons feels like beating up a toddler. So you don't beat up other players' designs from the workshop instead? It's a good way to pit one's design ethos against other kinds, too. I sometimes do, but until recently you couldn't, for example, have any sort of scenarios involving custom ships, plus with fully competitive mindset there is - by necessity - a lot of exploiting of questionable corner cases and deficiencies of the simulation (multiple lasers/nukes better than equivalent one, questionable railgun exit velocities and so on), techniques that don't play nice with lack of time compression (like setting engagement range way beyond the distance at which the laser will do appreciable damage) and techniques that don't play nice with hardware limitation (long distance projectile/missile spam).
Plus, we'd really need actual multiplayer for proper PvP - I'm not really an MP guy, but the gameplay already seems tailored for it and there are things the AI just won't handle properly.
I prefer building ships to tweaking modules too.
I wonder if stock module only challenge would be welcome? Stock modules could set a common ground making it easier to discern merits of various ship design techniques.
Lastly, the dependency system is still a huge mess and you can't avoid polluting the common namespace here. You don't have any sort of guarantee that you're fighting what author actually built and intended and it may or may not break or alter anything made by any other author.
I have a reason why I have only pushed stock module ships so far and this reason isn't just my aversion to learning that my coilguns/railguns/missiles/engines all suck.
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Post by whiteweasel on Jul 8, 2018 15:04:44 GMT
I think I've done it! The super sandblaster in particular is a rousing success. It's faster, more massive projectile and now improved accuracy make it excellent at drilling though the enemy armor.
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Post by jtyotjotjipaefvj on Jul 8, 2018 17:18:28 GMT
Lag from long-range railguns can be solved by getting rid of the payload. You can have a dozen of these going at max range and you won't get too bad lag. I'm including the design view so you can copy a bunch of weight saving concepts, mainly the aerogel barrel armor and vcs-vcs projectile and rail combination that seems to result in a very light barrel when not using a payload. Note also the wafer-thin momentum wheels. With coilguns, I like to use heavier projectiles since they work far better than railguns. The capacitor version is capable of shooting targets on its own, whereas the other one is meant as a final guidance stage for the rounds, and all energy will come from the firing drone's engines. When hitting a gunship at 5 km/s, both rounds will go straight through the armor on both sides.
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