acatalepsy
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Post by acatalepsy on Sept 27, 2016 14:39:37 GMT
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Post by argonbalt on Sept 27, 2016 17:34:40 GMT
I really don't think so, after going back and re reading all the dialogue in previous missions, there is nothing in particular to show that the USTF is in anyway particularly "good" guys or that the free peoples are the "bad" guys. While the war was most likely instigated by the UFP to their advantage, beyond some laughable corruption, nothing specifically shows any moral decide. Arguably everyone in the conflict is grey as fuck, it is a vary bare bones survivalist war, very realistic.
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acatalepsy
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Posts: 97
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Post by acatalepsy on Sept 27, 2016 18:17:44 GMT
It's a bare bones survivalist war as seen by the people instigating it, people who actively sabotaged and resisted any attempt to diplomatically settle issues out of fear that the civilian government (minus President Mom and her supporters) might do something crazy like, well, decide to not pick a fight with the other system superpower based on nothing but paranoia. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that their perspective is gonna be a bit warped here.
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Post by argonbalt on Sept 27, 2016 18:48:17 GMT
To be completely fair we do not really get a perspective on the enemy. We do not really know how their government works in depth, or what horrible crimes and amazing feats they might have done. Likewise the Martionesians civilian populations benefited hugely from this conflict unbeknown to them completely. Living in harmony is a great principle and all(and one i think space colonisation will if anything lend to) but you have to remember that COADE is a very non ideal societal situation. instead of planned and implemented societal engineering the Earth went to fart and a chunk of a billion people threw themselves onto the planets. So from that we already have a flawed survivalist favouring origin for the territories that DO survive. In addition this war will likely bring a lasting peace for a hundred years perhaps? The greatest civilian casualties were on Ganymede, outside of that this might be one of the smallest (by number of people) number of combatants killed in relation to territorial gain.
Also who are we kidding, this was inevitable if admiral daughter did not do the job then someone else would have, on top of the somewhat dubious claims of reactive material cut off from the USTF
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aiyel
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Post by aiyel on Sept 27, 2016 18:56:46 GMT
I really don't think so, after going back and re reading all the dialogue in previous missions, there is nothing in particular to show that the USTF is in anyway particularly "good" guys or that the free peoples are the "bad" guys. While the war was most likely instigated by the UFP to their advantage, beyond some laughable corruption, nothing specifically shows any moral decide. Arguably everyone in the conflict is grey as fuck, it is a vary bare bones survivalist war, very realistic. You mean aside from the "Let's go commit some atrocities!" document in the final mission briefing, and the "screw it, let's nuke the survivors" tone of the epilogue?
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Post by argonbalt on Sept 27, 2016 19:19:26 GMT
I really don't think so, after going back and re reading all the dialogue in previous missions, there is nothing in particular to show that the USTF is in anyway particularly "good" guys or that the free peoples are the "bad" guys. While the war was most likely instigated by the UFP to their advantage, beyond some laughable corruption, nothing specifically shows any moral decide. Arguably everyone in the conflict is grey as fuck, it is a vary bare bones survivalist war, very realistic. You mean aside from the "Let's go commit some atrocities!" document in the final mission briefing, and the "screw it, let's nuke the survivors" tone of the epilogue? I think this is Qswitched playing up a bit on the fact. Much like the children ice miners on Saturn's rings being a thinly veiled jab at coal mining children in the 1800's the "story" side of COADE is a pitch black comedy. It's kinda necessary to justify the fact that a space war is even occurring in such a brutal manner. But realistically i think the ending can be interpreted as an overly exited mom happily rolling in the fact that she is the single most powerful lady in the system. Otherwise it simply is not economical to "go commit some atrocities". If you win a war, and you get your neighbours house, then you burn it down, does it make much sense? The same thing happened at the end of WWII it is easier (and ludicrously more advantageous) to commit a small atrocity to break the final hardliners of the population(or shift the main pop mass) then move in sell Marsdonalds and Ares sneakers and cash the check. Not to mention the hazards of irradiating fully functioning resource mines, farms and population centres. I once saw a figure estimating that each human life was worth roughly a million dollars, so every loss in people is a hit to yourself (and your pocket book) if you win. And if you took the time to read the document "War Crimes" Paragraph 5 lines 3-4 "Simply remember that we're not here to destroy, to do Evil, to cause suffering, War crimes are a side effect of trying to win in every possible way we can. They are a means, not an end."
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acatalepsy
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Posts: 97
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Post by acatalepsy on Sept 27, 2016 19:37:59 GMT
If there was anything I found unrealistic about the enemies, it was that they kept assuming that you were this poor deluded fool tricked into commanding an invasion force that's coming to murder them - rather than being among the chief architects of the war effort. It's a necessary framing for the game, maybe, but it feels more than a little surreal.
Also, there's all kinds of social pressures that could result in war, but at the end of the day it's very clear that the thing is a project of the high command - the upper echelons of the military and political elite - based on a policy of deception, hostility, paranoia, and distrust of the civilian population. It is classist, cynical, and above all power-hungry. I think you're not getting the extent to which all of this is transparent rationalization and post hoc justification. Every military regime sells their battle as a necessary war of survival. Every war criminal tells themselves they're just doing what is needed in war, and that when it's over, they'll be the ones writing the history books.
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Post by argonbalt on Sept 27, 2016 19:56:48 GMT
If there was anything I found unrealistic about the enemies, it was that they kept assuming that you were this poor deluded fool tricked into commanding an invasion force that's coming to murder them - rather than being among the chief architects of the war effort. It's a necessary framing for the game, maybe, but it feels more than a little surreal. Also, there's all kinds of social pressures that could result in war, but at the end of the day it's very clear that the thing is a project of the high command - the upper echelons of the military and political elite - based on a policy of deception, hostility, paranoia, and distrust of the civilian population. It is classist, cynical, and above all power-hungry. I think you're not getting the extent to which all of this is transparent rationalization and post hoc justification. Every military regime sells their battle as a necessary war of survival. Every war criminal tells themselves they're just doing what is needed in war, and that when it's over, they'll be the ones writing the history books. Nah i get it it is just more fun to play devils advocate in any situation that feels black and white. But seriously is it really so insane to think that the USTF would not pull something similar given the opportunity? And even more so if anyone's "fault" it is that of the very free peoples themselves, after all they have a president and Parliament/senate of some sort. They democratically elected at least a majority of the necessary individuals who committed this. Also, im iffy on the exact numbers but if we take the UFP as the faction who moved the most humans the fastest to various colonies, then by defacto they should have the most people and in relation the most voting age individuals. So in the end if you want to blame anyone blame the free peoples themselves, they elected president mom, and the war more or less began, so they had an entire new election to "correct" the war with a new government, and hey they voted the same way again, so they put the word in your hand, even if you had to swing it. And before you go "Wait hey they were lied to and given propaganda and made ignorant through convoluted media!" No they were not. No population ever, EVER has a 100% the government said it so i believe it rate. Even Hitler was famously brought in on 33% of the vote. And unless the UFP has abolished and controls every media outlet in existence, then people most likely knew that things were not nearly so black and white, nor so clean cut. They were comfortable with life, they knew they were winning and they wanted to succeed. It is easy to point to president mom and admiral daughter and say "look there is dah bad guy" but if anyone is to blame it is the several billion Martian, Lunarian, Ceresian, etc
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acatalepsy
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Posts: 97
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Post by acatalepsy on Sept 27, 2016 20:25:07 GMT
They were comfortable with life, they knew they were winning and they wanted to succeed. It is easy to point to president mom and admiral daughter and say "look there is dah bad guy" but if anyone is to blame it is the several billion Martian, Lunarian, Ceresian, etc I feel like on the scale of "people to blame for things", Isoroku Yamamoto, Hideki Tojo and Prince Konoe go much higher on the list than, say, Sei Itō (to pick a random novelist from a history book I'm reading, whose reaction to Pearl Harbor was quoted as being "A fine deed"). The "we just want to be safe and prosperous" crowd didn't actively refuse diplomatic negotiations, lie constantly about the cost of war, and plan from the beginning to commit atrocities, you know? A body of people can be complicit in causing a war through acquiescence, but not as complicit as the people planning to actually start the war - especially when acquiescence is acquired by deceit or creation of a fait accompli. And it doesn't make your part in the war any less damning.
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Post by argonbalt on Sept 27, 2016 21:03:25 GMT
Perhaps, i just think it is not quite as black and white as UFP is the aggressor and USTF are innocent. Honestly the whole thing is just interesting to talk about. But it boils down to a simple question, Are military leaders always some sort of charismatic master mind that sweeps through and draws countless millions into their glory and power hungering plans? Or did the latent malaise of the UFP's populace not will it in a general sense, letting certain empowered individuals take care of the details? Think about it, if you had an enemy state whose political and ideological progenitors were responsible for the complete destruction of the Earth(an almost unmatchable crime) And in the face of that destruction ferried a small and ideologically sympathetic few off the Earth and towards planets and moons which gave them a resource advantage, all the while leaving you, the helpless non combatant in their war suffering a slow melting death were it not for the UFP's parent nations and organisations who prioritised YOU, and your family and as many as they could to save the very human race. I mean think about all the atrocities that happened in the past about arbitrary cultural devides, chunks of dirt that one nation wants but another has, religious squabbles etc. NOTHING IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF HUMAN KIND would compare to the absolute destruction of the Earth. Im not going to say that the third or fourth generation after the actual incident is guilty of it, but i think, culturally at least, you can see why it was not just perhaps the "be safe and prosperous crowd" but perhaps a very reasonable(though not morally justifiable) angered group of Martians who see the profitable descendants of the murderers of Gaia frolicking about laying claim to every asteroid possible and leveraging a future economic dominance over the UFP. Heck it makes the whole war more than justifiable, it was necessary, President mom and Admiral daughter were just the last rivet in the space-casket.
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acatalepsy
Junior Member
Not Currently In Space
Posts: 97
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Post by acatalepsy on Sept 28, 2016 3:49:39 GMT
I didn't say the USTF were innocent (unless you thought the initial video constituted an endorsement of Stalinism somehow?). I implied that maybe the military-political clique that your character seems to be a part, and now the military forces you command were...probably not exactly the good guys in this conflict? Like every group of power-hungry elites that, whatever their fears and justifications, don't justify their actions in the slightest? Let's go with that one.
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Post by argonbalt on Sept 28, 2016 5:17:45 GMT
Yeah id agree.
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Post by elroyscout on Sept 30, 2016 13:35:29 GMT
I think the real kicker was that silo-ship. You fought to defend it from the cradle, it was often the initial option in most missions, it was practically your flagship... and at the end it was used to massacre and murder civilians. They strung you along until it was out of your hands and all you could do was watch halfway across the solar system... or you knew for years what was going to happen. That is dark no matter how you slice it, plus the fact that they're assaulting an unarmed refueling station while they say this is just twisting the knife and kicking it in.
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Post by The Astronomer on Oct 1, 2016 14:03:27 GMT
When I am playing "The Fall of Titan" I play "Battle Against A True Hero" from Undertale. Really fit. His words really makes me feel bad about what I have done. "In the war, everyone is evil." - told to me by my teacher. www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCMJC1Ig6s
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Post by boomertiro on Oct 1, 2016 15:17:11 GMT
Acatalepsy... have you taken a look at our helmets...
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