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Post by vegemeister on Mar 1, 2017 16:15:22 GMT
deltav the cic would bigger, people like to be able to move around, or if you have a holotank, be able to approach the problem from the other side of the room It's a spaceship. Every cubic meter of pressurized volume costs.
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Post by deltav on Mar 1, 2017 16:44:00 GMT
Crew Module size per person. Taking the 45 crew module as example. 1.7 m radius by 22.6 m cylinder. What would be in the inner volume? 4 cm thick armor is 0.004 m. 1.696 m inner radius and 22.596 inner length. Volume V = π×h×(R² − r²) = π × h × (D² − d²) ⁄ 4 204.23 m^3 inner volume. Let's say 1/4 of that is for... six months of food (there's a cook), water (there's a waste/water officer), and HVAC (there's a Air Circulation officer). OR the means to produce six months of it. 153.17 m^3, so 3.40 m^3 per person. Each person would have about 3 of these, plenty of room to "stand up", but not enough room to spread out their arms. In reality, there would be some kind of division into stations and rooms, so no matter how you slice it, our living modules would be pretty cramped. Which is why I think the CIC would look like this.. Ha this is so funny to me. If you like scifi, find a copy of Dark Star. it's dated, but entertaining.
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Post by Enderminion on Mar 1, 2017 17:23:15 GMT
Nobody would Like working in that space, and a happy crew is a better crew
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Post by deltav on Mar 1, 2017 20:39:13 GMT
Nobody would Like working in that space, and a happy crew is a better crew I think if you grew up in space, living in cramped quarters would just be what you are used to. Why you as a native spaceman might even prefer such cramped quarters. It's not hard to imagine as babies prefer being held tightly and swaddled. With great design the space could be used very well in fact be quite confortable.
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Post by deltav on Mar 1, 2017 22:27:40 GMT
Thinking about the guess of 1/4 of the crew module being water, food, etc, that bothered me. Felt arbitrary. But I found this life support calculator. www.5596.org/cgi-bin/mission.phpSo it turns out 1/4 was on the money if just counting food and air. But water is a different story. Time to find out more about space waste recycling.
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Post by Enderminion on Mar 2, 2017 0:32:35 GMT
Nobody would Like working in that space, and a happy crew is a better crew I think if you grew up in space, living in cramped quarters would just be what you are used to. Why you as a native spaceman might even prefer such cramped quarters. It's not hard to imagine as babies prefer being held tightly and swaddled. With great design the space could be used very well in fact be quite confortable. If I can't easily escape from where I am going I don't like that place, you have to be able to get into or out of your workstation easily
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Post by deltav on Mar 2, 2017 1:24:34 GMT
I think if you grew up in space, living in cramped quarters would just be what you are used to. Why you as a native spaceman might even prefer such cramped quarters. It's not hard to imagine as babies prefer being held tightly and swaddled. With great design the space could be used very well in fact be quite confortable. If I can't easily escape from where I am going I don't like that place, you have to be able to get into or out of your workstation easily If you are claustrophobic, you have no business on a spaceship (or a sub) for six months straight. In the crew module, you cannot reach out your arms without hitting two other people. Keep picturing that. Take some masking tape, measure out 1 m by 1 m and then try to stay in that space for 5 minutes. That's your life as a spaceman, forever. You are locked in a tiny box full of people. So escape how? And escape to where exactly? If the crew module is damaged you are dead. If the crew module is intact and powered you are alive. So every place inside the crew module is equally safe. And if the crew module isn't safe you are dead anyway. We have to think like spacemen. When I play COADE in battle, I imagine I am locked in a tiny box just big enough for me to fit, that is in the middle of a roaring furnace. It's cramped, but outside the box is death. Spacemen don't get claustrophobic, and they don't abandon their ship... because a spaceman abandoning their ship, has the same chance of survival as a fish trying to make a new life on dry land. Edit: I thought up a better way to think of how much personal space each person has in our COADE modules. 130 cm x 130 cm x 200 cm. This lets you "stand up" fully, sleep comfortably, and even lets you fully stretch one arm at a time, but not both. It lets you "sit down" with your back against the "wall" and fully stretch out your legs if you are 6 feet or shorter. It's pretty roomy, but I really wonder what the inner design would really be like.
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Post by Enderminion on Mar 2, 2017 2:09:27 GMT
I am Not small deltav I think a 2x2x2M area is the msmallest possible volume for a human and thats pushing it.
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Post by RiftandRend on Mar 2, 2017 2:45:04 GMT
I am Not small deltav I think a 2x2x2M area is the smallest possible volume for a human and thats pushing it. Navies would probably favor small people for recruits.
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Post by deltav on Mar 2, 2017 2:46:12 GMT
I am Not small deltav I think a 2x2x2M area is the msmallest possible volume for a human and thats pushing it. Made a "drawing" showing what 3.4 m^2 per person of space COULD look like. Edit: I realized you don't need much head room, would have to talk to psychologist, of what is more important to not feel cramped, head room or room around... but this is just a rough idea anyway. The green man and the blue man are the same person in two different positions. I think it's quite livable for people who grew up in space I think. You can fully stretch each limb, "stand up", and have "personal space" above 1.2 m in front, which is needed psychologically to feel not encroached upon. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProxemicsBut no head room. Because most of the crew works in shift. At least 1/3 of the crew would be sleeping at any one time. So practically, you might get at least 25% more space than this in your waking hours anyway. Edit: I don't know if people would really be happy like this. But this is what we have in COADE, and I think it makes sense to really think through how it would be and the way our ships are crewed, etc.
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Post by Enderminion on Mar 2, 2017 2:55:09 GMT
Ok fine I see the light, and RiftandRend yes they would pay for smaller recruits, however everyone is in Low-g and larger
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Post by deltav on Mar 2, 2017 3:33:26 GMT
Ok fine I see the light, and RiftandRend yes they would pay for smaller recruits, however everyone is in Low-g and larger I'm with you, it'd be pretty cramped for me or you. I'm just trying to think this out as if it were real and see what it would really be like. Your questions make me think into it more.
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Post by Enderminion on Mar 2, 2017 3:41:13 GMT
yes people get bigger with lower gravity, and how many spin stations are spooled at 1g?
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Post by deltav on Mar 2, 2017 4:02:04 GMT
yes people get bigger with lower gravity, and how many spin stations are spooled at 1g? Well we know that without some miracle drug or genetic engineering, people can't live long term (more than 6 months or so) in zero g. Their eyesight fails, they become very weak, etc, and most alarming, these changes are PERMANENT. So I don't think anyone will "grow up" in zero g, but inside space stations or "nursery stations" with 1 g or even better. A person who grows up from age 0-15 or so in 1.5 g or even 2 g will do a lot better in zero g as an adult, than someone who grows up in zero g and has to be subjected to 1 g acceleration in a space warship. The guy who grows up in 1.5 or 2 g in O'neill type cylinders, will be healthy, robust, compact, strong and be better able to deal with high g acceleration in space warfare than the weak spindly unhealthy guy who grows up in zero or low g. Conclusion So I don't think anyone will grow up in zero g. They'd be useless as adults in space warships, at the very least they would be at a huge disadvantage. They would need crash couches just to deal with 1g of acceleration, maybe even less. They would be very tall and weak, taking up alot of room in habitat modules at no benefit. They would have permanently weak eyesight, and many other health problems. They would have very weak hearts and lungs, making them more likely to suddenly die from even light trauma. O'neill Cylinders or other spin gravity space stations spun up to 1g or even better are affordable and capable with current tech, and they would be essential for any long term habitat in space. Children who grow up in this spin gravity would have distinct advantages over even those who grow up in low g environments like Mars. They would be stronger, more robust, better able to deal with 1 g or lower acceleration in space warships, and would have stronger hearts, lungs, and eyesight. They would be a better Space Warfare Navy Man, and would give a distinct advantage to whomever employed them vs those raised on low g planets or even worse in zero g.
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Post by Enderminion on Mar 2, 2017 4:26:35 GMT
yes people get bigger with lower gravity, and how many spin stations are spooled at 1g? Well we know that without some miracle drug or genetic engineering, people can't live long term (more than 6 months or so) in zero g. Their eyesight fails, they become very weak, etc, and most alarming, these changes are PERMANENT. That is just flat wrong, a NASA astronaut just spent 12 months in ISS recently, He can still walk, he can still see, he can still lift (smaller weights) weights (smaller then before he left), He will be better after some training and a few years back on earth. people can live for longer then 6 months in 0g.
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