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Post by The Astronomer on Jan 24, 2017 4:55:26 GMT
I guess the project will be put to a hibernation, as there hasn't been any movement recently.
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Post by newageofpower on Jan 24, 2017 6:46:13 GMT
I guess the project will be put to a hibernation, as there hasn't been any movement recently. Le shock! I'm so surprised. How could this be?
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Post by The Astronomer on Jan 24, 2017 6:59:57 GMT
I guess the project will be put to a hibernation, as there hasn't been any movement recently. Le shock! I'm so surprised. How could this be? I'm not surprised. We have no modder, not even anyone to work with the storyline. My study will be over in less than one month, but it'll be busy until then.
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Post by petrifiedwalnut on Jan 24, 2017 15:33:17 GMT
Hold on - been busy, but will answer
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Post by petrifiedwalnut on Jan 25, 2017 21:52:33 GMT
I am replying now - I hope we aren't o hibernation!
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Post by argonbalt on Jan 26, 2017 0:51:50 GMT
IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT As of yesterday at approximately 23:10 Earth Greenwich time/23:49 Tharsis City time two important agreements were reached between the current major members of industry on Mars BAHRAMVerolan Space & Aeronautics CorporationandHyper Productions Have ratified the economic N.M.T.P., the New Martian Trade Partnership a new deal based on a mutual shared interest in success in their local sphere of influence on the red world. In addition the political ratification of a new political deal has created: The Blutetsustellar Alliance, hopefully leading to a prosperous future, any new industries hoping to operate on Mars will be voted on and approved/denied entry into the Alliance by the three founding party members. Trade between the members and outside worlds and groups is still allowed and this in no way will impact any future dealings between secondary groups so long as it does not jeopardise Martian industry or safety. With great optimism we here at BAHRAM Believe this puts Mars as a whole on equal footing with the other large powerful system parties and members.
Thank you for your time. Per aspera ad astra
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Post by darkwarriorj on Jan 26, 2017 1:15:19 GMT
First post... here's a possible backstory/history for this setting, if accepted. Much of this is admittedly a rough attempt to justify the names of each faction, but here it is: History:
The First Wave:
From the mid 2020s to the early 2030s, structural problems within both the American and Chinese economies result in a global economic collapse. Global instability plunges the world into chaos. The resultant extremism, factionalism and persecution which arises causes countless minority and sometimes even majority groups to seek an exit. These groups turn to the solar system as their hope. For as it turns out, the only sector of the economy not severely affected by this crisis is the space sector, as while Earthbound economic ties suffer, the newborn space-based industrial economy as a while suffers minimally. Spearheaded by powerful private corporations such as SpaceX and Planetary Resources, and later joined by social entities such as social movements and governments seeking to reduce pressure at home, the first major wave of human colonization of the solar system begins. Many of the modern factions emerge around this time. - In the United States, wealthy individuals, such as billionaires, fear for their lives as populist sentiment turns sharply against them. First, they offshore most of their assets to more supportive nations. After, they bring with them assorted groups unaligned with this new political wave such as libertarians, Mormons, upper-middle class liberals and normal people just trying to make their fortune. This group would found the first true American colonies in space, as well as forming the nucleus of the Liberty Exchange later in history. - In China, long suppressed social, political and religious groups such as Chinese democrats, Old Guard communists and Falun Gong practitioners have already been taking to space. They are joined by Chinese fascists, New Guard Communists and traditional Chinese cultural revivalists who find the current social or cultural position to be insufficiently going their way. The government also finds it fit to export large numbers of refugees coming from the collapse of North Korea. Along them joins a large number of normal Chinese citizens seeking to make their fortune in space, and the first space policing force as the PRC government does not sufficiently trust these splinter groups. Combined with the continued endurance of the one state, many govenments model first demonstrated by Hong Kong, China would go on to attain entry from Taiwan, Singapore, United Korea, Cambodia and other assorted states, eventually forming what is colloquially called the East Asian Megastate some time in the future. The fates of other nations: - Speaking of Revolving Door Revolutions, this decade sees the final collapse of the European Union, to be replaced with the European National Alliance - an outgrowth of previous alliances between far right political parties in decades past. As they assume power, the old liberal European elites and well off ethnic minorities board the rockets to escape ever increasing persecution. They are matched by the numbers of normal European colonists, as a friendly rivalry between the allied nations results in an internal space race. The ENA, with an shakey distribution of power centres between France, Germany, Poland and Hungary, eventually lean anti-Russian, much to the dismay of Russia (which indirectly caused the ENA's rise in the first place). This situation will hold stable for several decades, until the ENA-Russian Federation war, which will result in the rise of the North Eurasian Socialist Union (the political axis swings hard to the exact other direction in the aftermath of the war). - Even while Japan was officially a US ally, there were subtle signs that the Japanese leadership were bound not by ties of friendship or honour, but by cold realpolitik. This trend only wavers slightly when Japan is taken over by right wing ultranationalist forces, for even the ultranationists see the cold logic in realigning with China. Nicknamed Nippon Prime, this new Japan sees logic in joining the sphere of influence of her superpower neighbour rather than being a scortched battleground between superpowers, and to gain easy access to space from the EAM's Spaceport Singapore. Being nationalist though, they strongly refuse any offer to join the EAM. The South Asian War:
The Indian subcontinent as a whole got off fairly lightly from the global economic collapse, allowing them to continue to grow and make politics without external influence. Unfortunately, this also entailed a continuation of the hostilities between India and Pakistan. (India and Pakistan go to a 30-50 nuclear bomb war, causing devastation within both countries, causing even more people around the world to colonize space, and ending in a United Nations military mandate over both countries which resolves with the breakup and reformation of both countries into the South Asian Republic. This republic goes on to assilimate much of the rest of South Asia.) On other plot points:
- On Ground Battles: Rather than having each faction swear not to wage war on Earth, what if we flipped it - Each faction does brutally and viciously wage war on Earth. Only, there's one problem - Stalemate. It first began as an outgrowth of ground based anti-ICBM technology, which also allowed for such vicious ground war in the first place as mutually assured destruction is no longer a thing. The problem expanded with the growth of tactically incredibly lethal weapons, such as precision guided munitions, which tends to result in a strategic defensive being strongly favored. Something of a mix between www.unz.com/akarlin/future-war/ and Rocketpunk Manifesto's www.rocketpunk-manifesto.com/2010/09/space-warfare-xii-surface-warfare.html . This will go on to provide a reason for each faction's focus on space warfare - because it is seen as the key to break this stalemate. - Why space? Primary reason for the average individuals I have simply pulled from historical colonization examples. Namely, escaping persecution, forming one's own utopian society, making it rich on the frontier and fear of violence at home. This is most strongly developed for the American and Chinese factions above, but will need work for the other factions.
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Post by petrifiedwalnut on Jan 26, 2017 4:19:39 GMT
The primary problem with space colonization is that it is so incredibly expensive that it is not economically feasible for a private citizen to engage in without a great deal of help, and the organizations likely to help will need a great deal of incentive beyond just "people want to" in order for it to be profitable. This is the reason why the author of CoaDE wanted Earth to be lifeless in the first place.
I agree that it seems unlikely that any large factions on Earth would not consider terrestrial warfare, though - but indeed, there may be consequences, either in the form of stalemate, or in the form of getting everyone else in the solar system so angry at you to make sure you are wiped from existence utterly for causing undue destruction on Earth.
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Post by darkwarriorj on Jan 26, 2017 4:56:20 GMT
The primary problem with space colonization is that it is so incredibly expensive that it is not economically feasible for a private citizen to engage in without a great deal of help, and the organizations likely to help will need a great deal of incentive beyond just "people want to" in order for it to be profitable. This is the reason why the author of CoaDE wanted Earth to be lifeless in the first place. I agree that it seems unlikely that any large factions on Earth would not consider terrestrial warfare, though - but indeed, there may be consequences, either in the form of stalemate, or in the form of getting everyone else in the solar system so angry at you to make sure you are wiped from existence utterly for causing undue destruction on Earth. I recall SpaceX intends to bring down the cost to about $100 000 to $500 000 per person to Mars should they get their rockets fully reusable. Still extremely pricey and out of the reach of most people, but I can imagine the upper middle class managing to do this. Now, consider adding some real space launch infrastructure - a Space Elevator ($200/kg) for example, or a Lofstrom Loop ($3 or $0.3/kg), or a Startram ($40/kg). High capital investment, but if it gets launching, costs drop to the tens of thousands or even thousands of dollars - well within the reach of normal people now. Or given the sheer laser firepower we have in game, laser thermal rocket launchers (rocket just carries inert water, ground based lasers heat it up as it drops out of the rocket), which are probably more scalable than the previous suggestions and result in prices about the same. Also consider nuclear launchers - the Liberty Shuttle, or even better, the Orion ground launched, and suddenly launch costs to orbits are on the matter of cents per kilogram or less. Space and Space colonization is obscenely expensive because we don't have the infrastructure and/or tech in place for now. Once we do, the skies are open on the launch end, which dramatically drops the prices of most things. The main reason space is so expensive today is because it costs over $5000 per kilogram to orbit - and this is a heavily reduced price from the old $11 000 thanks to SpaceX driving the prices down already. As for the cost of the rest of the infrastructure, admittedly that might be rather significant. I don't have numbers for that.
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Post by theholyinquisition on Jan 26, 2017 18:06:12 GMT
First post... here's a possible backstory/history for this setting, if accepted. Much of this is admittedly a rough attempt to justify the names of each faction, but here it is: History:
The First Wave:
From the mid 2020s to the early 2030s, structural problems within both the American and Chinese economies result in a global economic collapse. Global instability plunges the world into chaos. The resultant extremism, factionalism and persecution which arises causes countless minority and sometimes even majority groups to seek an exit. These groups turn to the solar system as their hope. For as it turns out, the only sector of the economy not severely affected by this crisis is the space sector, as while Earthbound economic ties suffer, the newborn space-based industrial economy as a while suffers minimally. Spearheaded by powerful private corporations such as SpaceX and Planetary Resources, and later joined by social entities such as social movements and governments seeking to reduce pressure at home, the first major wave of human colonization of the solar system begins. Many of the modern factions emerge around this time. - In the United States, wealthy individuals, such as billionaires, fear for their lives as populist sentiment turns sharply against them. First, they offshore most of their assets to more supportive nations. After, they bring with them assorted groups unaligned with this new political wave such as libertarians, Mormons, upper-middle class liberals and normal people just trying to make their fortune. This group would found the first true American colonies in space, as well as forming the nucleus of the Liberty Exchange later in history. - In China, long suppressed social, political and religious groups such as Chinese democrats, Old Guard communists and Falun Gong practitioners have already been taking to space. They are joined by Chinese fascists, New Guard Communists and traditional Chinese cultural revivalists who find the current social or cultural position to be insufficiently going their way. The government also finds it fit to export large numbers of refugees coming from the collapse of North Korea. Along them joins a large number of normal Chinese citizens seeking to make their fortune in space, and the first space policing force as the PRC government does not sufficiently trust these splinter groups. Combined with the continued endurance of the one state, many govenments model first demonstrated by Hong Kong, China would go on to attain entry from Taiwan, Singapore, United Korea, Cambodia and other assorted states, eventually forming what is colloquially called the East Asian Megastate some time in the future. The fates of other nations: - Speaking of Revolving Door Revolutions, this decade sees the final collapse of the European Union, to be replaced with the European National Alliance - an outgrowth of previous alliances between far right political parties in decades past. As they assume power, the old liberal European elites and well off ethnic minorities board the rockets to escape ever increasing persecution. They are matched by the numbers of normal European colonists, as a friendly rivalry between the allied nations results in an internal space race. The ENA, with an shakey distribution of power centres between France, Germany, Poland and Hungary, eventually lean anti-Russian, much to the dismay of Russia (which indirectly caused the ENA's rise in the first place). This situation will hold stable for several decades, until the ENA-Russian Federation war, which will result in the rise of the North Eurasian Socialist Union (the political axis swings hard to the exact other direction in the aftermath of the war). - Even while Japan was officially a US ally, there were subtle signs that the Japanese leadership were bound not by ties of friendship or honour, but by cold realpolitik. This trend only wavers slightly when Japan is taken over by right wing ultranationalist forces, for even the ultranationists see the cold logic in realigning with China. Nicknamed Nippon Prime, this new Japan sees logic in joining the sphere of influence of her superpower neighbour rather than being a scortched battleground between superpowers, and to gain easy access to space from the EAM's Spaceport Singapore. Being nationalist though, they strongly refuse any offer to join the EAM. The South Asian War:
The Indian subcontinent as a whole got off fairly lightly from the global economic collapse, allowing them to continue to grow and make politics without external influence. Unfortunately, this also entailed a continuation of the hostilities between India and Pakistan. (India and Pakistan go to a 30-50 nuclear bomb war, causing devastation within both countries, causing even more people around the world to colonize space, and ending in a United Nations military mandate over both countries which resolves with the breakup and reformation of both countries into the South Asian Republic. This republic goes on to assilimate much of the rest of South Asia.) On other plot points:
- On Ground Battles: Rather than having each faction swear not to wage war on Earth, what if we flipped it - Each faction does brutally and viciously wage war on Earth. Only, there's one problem - Stalemate. It first began as an outgrowth of ground based anti-ICBM technology, which also allowed for such vicious ground war in the first place as mutually assured destruction is no longer a thing. The problem expanded with the growth of tactically incredibly lethal weapons, such as precision guided munitions, which tends to result in a strategic defensive being strongly favored. Something of a mix between www.unz.com/akarlin/future-war/ and Rocketpunk Manifesto's www.rocketpunk-manifesto.com/2010/09/space-warfare-xii-surface-warfare.html . This will go on to provide a reason for each faction's focus on space warfare - because it is seen as the key to break this stalemate. - Why space? Primary reason for the average individuals I have simply pulled from historical colonization examples. Namely, escaping persecution, forming one's own utopian society, making it rich on the frontier and fear of violence at home. This is most strongly developed for the American and Chinese factions above, but will need work for the other factions. I can't imagine libertarians and the modern upper-middle class american liberal leftist working together, especially with Mormons. How did far-right, nationalistic, xenophobic political parties take control of multiple countries and ally with each other on the continent of the Second World War? (same with japan.) What happened to all the Europeans who fled the new fascist regimes? What happened to the North American continent, with the exodus of the Americans? Did Canada annex it? Korea uniting would be a hellish nightmare and an economic catastrophe for the region. How on earth did Communist revolutionaries, democratic idealists, fascists, and Confucians work together?
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Post by darkwarriorj on Jan 26, 2017 19:50:35 GMT
I can't imagine libertarians and the modern upper-middle class american liberal leftist working together, especially with Mormons. How did far-right, nationalistic, xenophobic political parties take control of multiple countries and ally with each other on the continent of the Second World War? (same with japan.) What happened to all the Europeans who fled the new fascist regimes? What happened to the North American continent, with the exodus of the Americans? Did Canada annex it? Korea uniting would be a hellish nightmare and an economic catastrophe for the region. How on earth did Communist revolutionaries, democratic idealists, fascists, and Confucians work together? On libertarians, upper-middle, leftists and mormons working together - actually the idea wasn't so much them working together, as much as them being the main groups leaving for space given the chance. Particularly given wealthy sponsors they have. They do not necessarily work closely together, but they do go off to space, and found their own colonies, and work loosely together. Same for China. How do nationalist parties take control and ally with each other? Opportunistically, and in opposition to modern globalist liberalism. There's more than just that particular one, interestingly enough. Is this stable? Very arguable, but unlike last time imperialism and expansionism are not things they support, on average. Not all Americans left. Only a small minority, forming the core of the American colonies in space, who come back to influence America. The USA is largely still on Earth. Canada probably gets annexed by the USA rather than the other way around. Depends on how the Korean peninsula unites. A managed, controlled unification would bring about a stupidly powerful great power in the region, alongside an incredible economic boom. This said, I did say North Korea collapsed, so that's not good. I'll find my source on this in a bit.
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Post by theholyinquisition on Jan 26, 2017 20:58:22 GMT
I can't imagine libertarians and the modern upper-middle class american liberal leftist working together, especially with Mormons. How did far-right, nationalistic, xenophobic political parties take control of multiple countries and ally with each other on the continent of the Second World War? (same with japan.) What happened to all the Europeans who fled the new fascist regimes? What happened to the North American continent, with the exodus of the Americans? Did Canada annex it? Korea uniting would be a hellish nightmare and an economic catastrophe for the region. How on earth did Communist revolutionaries, democratic idealists, fascists, and Confucians work together? On libertarians, upper-middle, leftists and mormons working together - actually the idea wasn't so much them working together, as much as them being the main groups leaving for space given the chance. Particularly given wealthy sponsors they have. They do not necessarily work closely together, but they do go off to space, and found their own colonies, and work loosely together. Same for China. How do nationalist parties take control and ally with each other? Opportunistically, and in opposition to modern globalist liberalism. There's more than just that particular one, interestingly enough. Is this stable? Very arguable, but unlike last time imperialism and expansionism are not things they support, on average. Not all Americans left. Only a small minority, forming the core of the American colonies in space, who come back to influence America. The USA is largely still on Earth. Canada probably gets annexed by the USA rather than the other way around. Depends on how the Korean peninsula unites. A managed, controlled unification would bring about a stupidly powerful great power in the region, alongside an incredible economic boom. This said, I did say North Korea collapsed, so that's not good. I'll find my source on this in a bit. If they are just the groups that left, why did they band together to create the "Liberty Exchange"? Why isn't the USA still a great power, then? Just outgunned? If you look closely, the parties in that alliance have seats in exactly ONE country, and the group does not extend to the most powerful nations of the EU, namely France and Germany. It's hard to justify "We are eternal brothers with our friends in arms." when your campaign stance is "We are the greatest country on the planet and everyone else should accept that." North Korea is a medieval hellhole, run by an egotistical madman. Not only do some oppose reunification, it would be an economic nightmare. Remember what happened to Germany when they reunified? it would be 6 times as bad.
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Post by petrifiedwalnut on Jan 27, 2017 0:03:28 GMT
I think one of you may not understand what libertarianism is in American politics, by the way. Liberals and libertarians actually have a lot in common. The basic difference between them is that liberals trust the government to fix social problems, while libertarians agree that said problems need to be confronted, but don't trust the government's ability to solve them.
Project Rho has some essays on 'space libertarians' and points out that the individualism of libertarianism on the American frontier in space is doomed to failure simply because you need a certain minimum number of people in order to make a habitat work. It's why CoaDE warships have (in practice rather large) crews, instead of being mostly automated with just one or two people at the helm. This community-level organization is more liberal-like than libertarian in sound, although it does offer freedom from more impersonal governments on Earth, since a government for a society of a few hundred people will be in better touch with its individual citizens than a government of a society of millions. As such, libertarians may want full independence from society the way that settlers did on the frontier, but they can't have it. They can have smaller government, though, so even this concession is better than nothing.
So yeah, I can easily see liberals and libertarians setting aside their differences to live together in space.
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Post by darkwarriorj on Jan 27, 2017 1:19:15 GMT
If they are just the groups that left, why did they band together to create the "Liberty Exchange"? Why isn't the USA still a great power, then? Just outgunned? If you look closely, the parties in that alliance have seats in exactly ONE country, and the group does not extend to the most powerful nations of the EU, namely France and Germany. It's hard to justify "We are eternal brothers with our friends in arms." when your campaign stance is "We are the greatest country on the planet and everyone else should accept that." North Korea is a medieval hellhole, run by an egotistical madman. Not only do some oppose reunification, it would be an economic nightmare. Remember what happened to Germany when they reunified? it would be 6 times as bad.They banded together in trade, in opposition to the persecution they suffered in the USA, and likely due to the influence of the billionares who sponsored them, since the billionares would much prefer to interact with their fellows and all. These wealthy elites will promote a less nationalistic, more globalist ideology centered on freedom and trade - hence Liberty Exchange, and being at least similar in situation if not entirely in mindset, they band together into this informal "Liberty Exchange". The USA eventually becomes the Liberty Exchange, or at least a part of it. These colonists come back and eventually their influence reforms and changes the United States. To clarify, these colonists go out and found the origins of the "Liberty Exchange". The name itself might just be a nickname for the American space colonies. Just as not ALL Puritans left to go found New England (And indeed, those who stay would later go on to take power in England and abolish Christmas and then get abolished), it's also not like America looses 100% of these groups who leave either. Those who stay, supported by those who left, would eventually influence and shift America back, and ties will grow until the name "USA" and the name "Liberty Exchange" become two names for the same thing. If you'll recall, this history is not the direct extension of modern status quo into the future indefinitely. If you will recall, two events are posited - economic collapse of the world's two economic hearts, which would basically cause disaster in Europe also, and mildly hinted at is the possibility of the Russians promoting such parties too in opposition to the west. If you will further note, this is not the one and only alliance. Follow the link to the European Alliance for Freedom, or indeed google up European Far Right alliances and you'll come upon a lot of them. Which probably indicates that they're opportunistic and unstable alliances, not actually suited for the formation of a stable bloc. Also, you misunderstand their campaign stances. At least from what I've read about them, their campaign stances are not "We're the greatest country and everyone should accept this", their campaign stances are "Globalist elites are destroying our culture, replacing our people, and killing our nation. They are importing terrorists and rapists, and censoring our minds with these things called political correctness and anti-hate speech laws. Will the spirit of France/Hungary/Germany/Poland/whoever be broken? Let us rise against these evil elites!". From there, it's not a hard stretch to go on and say, "We're not the only ones in this fight. The elites are killing France/Hungary/Britain/Whatever too! Let us support our brothers in arms, in reclaiming Europe! Europe for Europeans!" This isn't the old Europe, where Germans saw Poles as subhumans. This is the new Europe, where Germans and Poles see Middle Eastern refugees as subhumans or those who don't belong there, basically. Well, their philosophy goes much further than that, but that's a large part of the difference. Add in Russophobia for East European far right parties, and mix thoroughly. Medieval is giving them credit. Their system is literally Bronze Age god-king society. Any sudden or badly managed reunification would bring costs which make German reunification look like it cost nothing. But - and this comes with a big but - if managed correctly, the result is a regional great power with an incredible economy, a powerful military, nuclear weapons, space capacity, leadership in electronics and massive cultural influence. Consider the following articles: OneTwo, wikiThree
On that note though, United Korea or not doesn't particularly matter as a plot point anyways; furthermore, the storyline history as presented is not meant to be the modern day nor is it meant to be particularly realistic, else 1. none of the factions would have the names they do as seen in the initial post, and 2. it would have to account a lot more for the rise of assorted technologies which are 1. not modeled in game, and 2. would completely upend everything. Consider the potential impact of artificial general intelligence. Humans need not apply.
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Post by theholyinquisition on Jan 27, 2017 1:43:56 GMT
I think one of you may not understand what libertarianism is in American politics, by the way. Liberals and libertarians actually have a lot in common. The basic difference between them is that liberals trust the government to fix social problems, while libertarians agree that said problems need to be confronted, but don't trust the government's ability to solve them. Project Rho has some essays on 'space libertarians' and points out that the individualism of libertarianism on the American frontier in space is doomed to failure simply because you need a certain minimum number of people in order to make a habitat work. It's why CoaDE warships have (in practice rather large) crews, instead of being mostly automated with just one or two people at the helm. This community-level organization is more liberal-like than libertarian in sound, although it does offer freedom from more impersonal governments on Earth, since a government for a society of a few hundred people will be in better touch with its individual citizens than a government of a society of millions. As such, libertarians may want full independence from society the way that settlers did on the frontier, but they can't have it. They can have smaller government, though, so even this concession is better than nothing. So yeah, I can easily see liberals and libertarians setting aside their differences to live together in space. As a self-described liberal, those anarcho-capitalist idiots can go wank themselves off with that invisible hand of theirs. But we aren't here for politics. And as Rocket Cat points out, we'd be LUCKY to get a swedish-style hyper bureaucracy. When your neighbor on earth doesn't have his HVAC up to code, that doesn't affect you. If it happens in space, you are dead.
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