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Post by omnipotentvoid on Aug 1, 2017 17:44:48 GMT
It's been a while since I made a ridiculously large gun, and I thought I'd give it a try and see if I could get to a point where I exceed .01c with a 1g projectile. I succeeded. And the thing still "bounces" off of my heavy armor target at as close to 90° incident of impact as I can get. In fact, it doesn't penetrate beyond the third layer of armor. Now, I have made a similar thread before, but here I want to go beyond stating that the armor mechanic is broken. It is fairly clear that the projectile should be destroyed, there should be a big hole, etc. Rather, I want to show how broken it is and some of the implications (as far as I'm aware) of such high velocity projectiles. To fully understand these ridiculous impacts, more precisly why they are so, heres some math: Let us assume that the projectile is simply absorbed by the armor but stays reasonably intact (this is implicated by the game having it bounce). Further more let us assume uniform deceleration (this is easier and more forgiving as the highest deceleration is just after impact and is significantly higher than average). With the given armor scheme and the observed maximum penetration depth, this gives us a distance to decelerate of s=1.06m. With s=1/2*a*t 2 and t=v/a we get a=v 2/2s. Given the absorption of the projectil this gives us a velocity change v of 4.12*10 6m/s and thus an acceleration of just above 8*10 12m/s 2, or quadruple that if you assume a ricochet. The projectile mass is 10 -3kg, giving us a force of 8*10 9N or 8GN. The projectile has an area of about 3.421m -7, meaning it expieriences an aproximate 2.34*10 16Pa or 23.4PPa, 23.4 Peta Pascal! Again, quadrupel that in the case of the ricochet, as the change in velocity has doubled. As a point of reference: the only figure I have seen for electron degeneracy pressure ( link) is 29.4TPa, an order of magnitude smaller. Assuming the games penetration mechanics are correct (which they are not), here are some implications for projectiles aproaching 1%c given the above math: - Impacts will generate degenerate matter, which would then decay. This lessens the effect of wipple shields significantly, as it increases the time the projectile (or some part of it) remains intact for some time (relative to the time it takes the object to cross the gap between wipple shield and armor
- Impacts should give off a flash of radiation as electrons are dissasosiated and reasosiated from their atoms and some fusion/fission (likely) uccors
This also has some rather profund implications for hyper velocity projectiles in general (projectiles in the hundreds of km/s).
First of all, impact initiated fission (and possibly fussion) should be possible with these projectiles. Considering that you can get about 10T of explosive power out of about a gram of fissionable material in implosion style nukes, this would mean a significant increase in destructive power, if these materials can be used in these projectiles.
Far more significant in my opinion is the effect these projectiles would have on armor. Even at 100km/s on sub mm projectiles, the impact forces go far beyond the binding forces of the atoms of the strongest of our materials and the velocities involved are tens to hundreds of times beyond the speed of sound in our materials. This means that, on impact, armor would act like liquid. The resulting damage would thus mainly take the form of a massive cavitation bubble, similar to those seen in flesh with modern projectiles. These bubbles would not collapse back on themselves the same way, though, as the material would stop acting like a fluid below a certain speed. As the material slows, the material at the edge of the bubble would turn to plasma/gas/liquid as friction turns its kinetic energy into heat. As the edge slows below a critical velocity and becomes difuse, it will shatter the material there, fracturing the remaining armor and cause massive spalling. The plasma/gas expands rapidly as it forms causing a secondary explosion, causing even more direct damage and generating futher fractures and spalling in/from the already damaged armor. In fact it will do all this regardless of if it hits armor or a fuel tank or anything else, dumping all of its energy (2T of TnT equivalent in the case of my example) into whatever it hits. I feel if this was more accurately moddeled, high velocity railguns would do significantly more damage.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 29, 2017 10:26:18 GMT
At the velocities that are usually achieved, the ability to catch fire is irrelevant, as the materials that come into contact are shocked into plasma, making chemical reactions impossible.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 27, 2017 21:35:48 GMT
Well, I said I was going to work on a non modded version using F/H propulsion, here it is: ExplosiveModule Ranging Loade UsesCustomName true Length_m 0.01 ExplosiveMass_kg 0.0001 ExplosiveComposition Nitrocellulose ShrapnelMass_kg 0 ShrapnelComposition Aluminum Detonator HardRange_km 0 ActivationRange_km 0 MinimumRange_km 0 OverrideTimer_s 0 TargetsShips true TargetsShots true
CombustionRocketModule CLRM-F18.8/H1 M5A1 "Accelerator 2" Mk2 52.9KN 4.93 km/s UsesCustomName true Reaction Fluorine Hydrogen StoichiometricMixtureRatio 1 ThermalRocket ChamberComposition Diamond ThroatRadius_m 0.016 ChamberWallThickness_m 0.0011 ChamberContractionRatio 12 NozzleExpansionRatio 76 NozzleExpansionAngle_degrees 13 RegenerativeCooling_Percent 1 Injector Composition Lithium PumpRadius_m 0.08 RotationalSpeed_RPM 150 Gimbal InnerRadius_m 0.115 ArmorComposition Graphite Aerogel ArmorThickness_m 0.0001 MomentumWheels Composition Amorphous Carbon RotationalSpeed_RPM 81000 GimbalAngle_degrees 0.1
PropellantTankModule 141 kg Fluorine Tank 2 UsesCustomName false Propellant Fluorine StructureComposition Diamond ReactionMass_kg 141 HeightToRadiusRatio 15 AdditionalArmorThickness_m 0
PropellantTankModule 7.50 kg Hydrogen Tank 2 UsesCustomName false Propellant Hydrogen StructureComposition Diamond ReactionMass_kg 7.5 HeightToRadiusRatio 7.9 AdditionalArmorThickness_m 0
RemoteControlModule Swarm test Copy UsesCustomName true AspectRatio 8 HomingBehavior PropellantForBoostPhase_Percent 0.648 BoostPhase GuidanceLaw Augmented Proportional Navigation Accelerate true DampingEngineMultiplier 0.7 MidcoursePhase GuidanceLaw Augmented Proportional Navigation Accelerate false DampingEngineMultiplier 0.96 TerminalPhase GuidanceLaw Augmented Proportional Navigation Accelerate true DampingEngineMultiplier 0.12 IrradianceCutoff_Percent 0.092
SpacerModule 10.0 cm x 0 m Spacer UsesCustomName false Dimensions_m 0 0.1
SpacerModule 20.0 cm x 0 m Spacer UsesCustomName false Dimensions_m 0 0.2
CraftBlueprint Ranging Load Modules Ranging Loade 1 0 null 0 Armor
BlastLauncherModule Ranger Wasp LIID UsesCustomName true Payload Ranging Load PayloadRows 1 PayloadColumns 1 ExplosiveMaterial Nitrocellulose ExplosiveMass_kg 0.0001 ArmorMaterial Boron Filament ArmorThickness_m 0.001 EngagementRange_km 100 TargetsShips true TargetsShots false LaunchCountCap 0
CraftBlueprint KKV M5 Striker Modules CLRM-F18.8/H1 M5A1 "Accelerator 2" Mk2 52.9KN 4.93 km/s 1 0 null 0 141 kg Fluorine Tank 2 1 4.8356e-005 null 0 7.50 kg Hydrogen Tank 2 1 0 null 0 Swarm test Copy 1 2.8742 null 0 Ranger Wasp LIID 2 0.6011 null 0 10.0 cm x 0 m Spacer 1 3.5519 null 0 20.0 cm x 0 m Spacer 1 1.4371 null 0 Armor ArmorLayers Boron Filament 0.0005 0 0.69 1 1 Graphite Aerogel 0.01 0 0 1 1 Silica Aerogel 0.058 0 0.68 1 1
Not sure this still counts as "micro", but it has, in testing, proven quite capable of overcoming laser based weapons. It lacks in killing power to some extent due to being a KKV, but is excelent at crippling vessels (i.e. destroying fuel) making them easier to kill using weapons more capable of more widespread damage. The armor penetration properties are excelent though. It is capable of expending its dV in the intended engagement range of 100km and has a TTI of less than 30s at that range. When fired at a laser frigate in groups of 5, 3-5 missiles would hit in almost all cases in which the missiles were on target and as little as 2 would reach the frigate with decent reliability (even one would, on occasion, be enough). There seems to be some issue, though, where the guidance system decides to veer off. This seems to be the result of the high gs and high relative velocities. I've minimized this as much as I could, but it still happens occasionally. To use the missiles, they have to be set to homing in combat, as I use blast launchers to set the max engagement range and thus the game treats them as drones.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 26, 2017 21:08:58 GMT
Trying to create some anti missile/drone drones. Currently working on weapons and came up with this (one drone with one of these against a gunship for damage test): They were meant as anti drone weapons, but may be of limited effectivenes against actual ships. With enough of them, they may be able to take out a lightly armored ship. Kills the framerate though, as launch count cap is ignored if the payload is inert.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 26, 2017 16:29:39 GMT
Heres a suggestion for a way to get information out of the game:
To see what material properties a module uses for it's calculations, make modded materials that vary in one property from a standard material. This would allow us to see ties to material propeties the game does not specifically state. It could also tell you in what relation individual propeties are used if multiple ones are.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 21, 2017 20:23:43 GMT
Heres my attempt: RemoteControlModule Swarm test Copy UsesCustomName true AspectRatio 8 HomingBehavior PropellantForBoostPhase_Percent 0.449 BoostPhase GuidanceLaw Augmented Proportional Navigation Accelerate true DampingEngineMultiplier 1.51 MidcoursePhase GuidanceLaw Augmented Proportional Navigation Accelerate false DampingEngineMultiplier 2.45 TerminalPhase GuidanceLaw Augmented Proportional Navigation Accelerate true DampingEngineMultiplier 0.42 IrradianceCutoff_Percent 0.16
CombustionRocketModule CLRM-F12.6/HD1 M8 Raptor HD Mk1 60.1KN 4.7km/s UsesCustomName true Reaction Fluorine Hydrogen Deuteride StoichiometricMixtureRatio 1 ThermalRocket ChamberComposition Diamond ThroatRadius_m 0.015 ChamberWallThickness_m 0.0017 ChamberContractionRatio 17 NozzleExpansionRatio 52 NozzleExpansionAngle_degrees 26 RegenerativeCooling_Percent 1 Injector Composition Lithium PumpRadius_m 0.098 RotationalSpeed_RPM 98 Gimbal InnerRadius_m 0.14 ArmorComposition Graphite Aerogel ArmorThickness_m 0.0001 MomentumWheels Composition Reinforced Carbon-Carbon RotationalSpeed_RPM 47000 GimbalAngle_degrees 0.5
PropellantTankModule 37.8 kg Fluorine Tank UsesCustomName false Propellant Fluorine StructureComposition Diamond ReactionMass_kg 37.8 HeightToRadiusRatio 8.1 AdditionalArmorThickness_m 0
PropellantTankModule 3.00 kg Hydrogen Deuteride Tank UsesCustomName false Propellant Hydrogen Deuteride StructureComposition Diamond ReactionMass_kg 3 HeightToRadiusRatio 4.5 AdditionalArmorThickness_m 0
SpacerModule 5.00 cm x 0 m Spacer UsesCustomName false Dimensions_m 0 0.05
SpacerModule 10.0 cm x 0 m Spacer UsesCustomName false Dimensions_m 0 0.1
CraftBlueprint KKV M2 Spearo Mk1B Modules Swarm test Copy 1 0 null 0 CLRM-F12.6/HD1 M8 Raptor HD Mk1 60.1KN 4.7km/s 1 0 null 0 37.8 kg Fluorine Tank 1 -0.5 null 0 3.00 kg Hydrogen Deuteride Tank 1 -0.75 null 0 5.00 cm x 0 m Spacer 1 1.6047 null 0 10.0 cm x 0 m Spacer 1 -0.25 null 0 Armor ArmorLayers Spider Silk 0.0005 0 0.605 1 1 Graphite Aerogel 0.0041 0 0 1 1
Slightly modded, using flourine/hydrogendeuteride fuel (probably possible with flourine/hydrogen, but I was having fun and am to lazy to make a f/H version for now). Its a KKV with high acceleration to minimize time to target and function well with the standard minimum 10km intercept in game. It's also designed to be cheap and fission free, to minimize resource strain. I Might optimize it some more, but for now (as already stated) I'm just to lazy. Here's the pic with the stats:
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 18, 2017 6:55:13 GMT
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 17, 2017 21:34:04 GMT
Working on a cheaper/smaller version of my Thor AP missile. 5 Missiles with a bit more than 10kg shrapnell mass each tearing a hole clean through my test target with 1m Graphite aerogel, 1mm osmium wipple shield, 2cm of VCS and 1cm of bassalt fibre. Relative velocity was 5.5-6km/s, the missile has an acceleration of 130g wet, 592g dry.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 15, 2017 14:09:43 GMT
Aerobreaking useually causes some ablation, possibly destroying wipple shields. This means weakening armor in order to enter the AO. It also leaves a ship as a sitting duck for attacks from higher orbit, as it can't dodge for risk of losing or gaining to much altitude. Civilian ships may be built to use aerobreaking, but not millitary ones, as the manuever would be suicide in combat and designing a ship to have the capability would have drawbacks over not doing so in terms of the combat capabilities of the ship.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 14, 2017 14:34:40 GMT
The AI isn't great period.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 14, 2017 5:45:25 GMT
You'll want some sort of symetry in your ship, or engine setup will be a nightmare. Also (as allready mentioned) woe to yow if one of your engines loses thrust.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 13, 2017 18:44:37 GMT
Ok, this discussion strayed from its initial topic and I am sorry about that. I have a question though: since most of the stock materials, including boron filament you mention in the title are dielectric, is the purpose of this thread to use some modded porous materials as railgun armatures? I believe OP just wants to be able to use some hilariously underwhelming armature materials. No, I'm just anoyed by the fact I don't have the option for no good reason.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 13, 2017 8:31:14 GMT
More complex sensor simulation is a necessity. Information is such an important part of tactics, that if the current sensor systems remains in place CoaDE may become a very good simulation of the physics behind future space combat, but it will be a mere farce of actual space combat.
The idea of system wide detection/communication nets both sides can use is fantasy. Both sides of an engagement would destroy it and attempt to replace it with one only they can use. And while IR would be the go to for target acquisition, advanced targeting methods would be used to aim missiles at different points on a ship and to avoid targeting flares.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 12, 2017 21:56:38 GMT
Since metals typically lose their magnetic properties when heated, it's dubious if the projectile would even leave the barrel once liquified. Aren't magnetic properties irrelevent to railguns? As far as I know conductivity is all that matters. Yes, the magnetic field is generated by the current flowing through the circuit, thus the state of matter of the rails and projectile don't matter to the magnetic field. In fact, the only property that is required of the armature is electrical conductivity and since all materials are conductive given high enough voltage, anything can be used as an armature.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Jul 12, 2017 19:08:16 GMT
so... does that mean that our rail-guns won't work? I bring this up because if hyper-velocity micro-projectiles aren't practical than Whipple shields are significantly less important. They're paracticality is a complex problem. With supercunducting rails and molecular perfect engeniering they may very well be possible, or they may not be. Wipple shields are still pretty useless against hyper velocity projectiles, since the time it takes the projectiles plasma to cross the gap in armor is in the range of a few microseconds at most, meaning the plasma will still have a cross sectional density comparable to that of the original projectile when it hits the main armor layer. To be as effective as they are against standard velocity railguns (at around a few hundred km/s at most) wipple shields need to be at least tens of meters away from the main armor, making them disproportionatly heavy.
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