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Post by omnipotentvoid on Feb 12, 2017 17:34:39 GMT
The first thing I've been trying to do in CoaDE is making cannons with ridiculous muzzle energies. After derping my way to a few 20-30MJ designs that might almost be useful in a few niche circumstances, I came up with this:
CoilgunModule 20m Coilgun "Doomhammer"
UsesCustomName true
PowerConsumption_W 5.5e+006
Coil
Composition Vanadium Chromium Steel
WireRadius_m 0.1
NumberOfTurns 50
NumberOfLayers 20
NumberOfStages 50
BarrelArmorThickness_m 0.012
Armature
Composition Nickel Iron Molybdenum
BoreRadius_m 10
Mass_kg 5000
Tracer silver
Payload null
Loader
PowerConsumtion_W 1e+008
Turret
InnerRadius_m 30
ArmorComposition Maraging Steel
ArmorThickness_m 0.003
MomentumWheels
Composition Platinum
RotationalSpeed_RPM 2.7
TargetsShips true
TargetsShots false
My next thought was: "how does one stop one of these rounds?"
My attempts were met with failure after failure. Even armor that deflected the shots if at extreme angles was wrecked by doing so, sometimes even destroying modules beneath the armor. Ricochets were capable (sometimes) of destroying laser frigates. Hits directly to the sides were often tearing ships a part and even shots landing almost at the edge were still penetrating. Direct frontal hits almost always resulted in instant kills. I finally managed to create an armor setup that could "withstand" the shots: 1cm of diamond followed by 10m of graphite aerogel followed by a 1cm diamond wipelshield 4m away from the aerogel. However, I am not sure if this was actually withstanding the impacts or bugging out, since the armor did not get damaged, even after repeated hits to the same area and most impacts didn't even leave an entry hole.
Can somebody here come up with at least reasonably practical armor that can stop these rounds (perhaps not when flat on, but at least armor that doesn't disintegrate on deflecting these shots), because I sure can't. (Please excuse my noobishness)
Edit:
Also, does anyone know what this kind of projectile would do if fired at todays earth?
P.s. This is not meant to be a practical weapon, in case someone thinks that. The only real use I can come up with is bombardment of celestial bodies with non nuclear weapons/ with heavy defensive capabilities where nuclear missiles or missiles in general are not an option.
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Post by caiaphas on Feb 12, 2017 18:49:05 GMT
The first thing I've been trying to do in CoaDE is making cannons with ridiculous muzzle energies. After derping my way to a few 20-30MJ designs that might almost be useful in a few niche circumstances, I came up with this: CoilgunModule 20m Coilgun "Doomhammer"
UsesCustomName true
PowerConsumption_W 5.5e+006
Coil
Composition Vanadium Chromium Steel
WireRadius_m 0.1
NumberOfTurns 50
NumberOfLayers 20
NumberOfStages 50
BarrelArmorThickness_m 0.012
Armature
Composition Nickel Iron Molybdenum
BoreRadius_m 10
Mass_kg 5000
Tracer silver
Payload null
Loader
PowerConsumtion_W 1e+008
Turret
InnerRadius_m 30
ArmorComposition Maraging Steel
ArmorThickness_m 0.003
MomentumWheels
Composition Platinum
RotationalSpeed_RPM 2.7
TargetsShips true
TargetsShots false
My next thought was: "how does one stop one of these rounds?" My attempts were met with failure after failure. Even armor that deflected the shots if at extreme angles was wrecked by doing so, sometimes even destroying modules beneath the armor. Ricochets were capable (sometimes) of destroying laser frigates. Hits directly to the sides were often tearing ships a part and even shots landing almost at the edge were still penetrating. Direct frontal hits almost always resulted in instant kills. I finally managed to create an armor setup that could "withstand" the shots: 1cm of diamond followed by 10m of graphite aerogel followed by a 1cm diamond wipelshield 4m away from the aerogel. However, I am not sure if this was actually withstanding the impacts or bugging out, since the armor did not get damaged, even after repeated hits to the same area and most impacts didn't even leave an entry hole. Can somebody here come up with at least reasonably practical armor that can stop these rounds (perhaps not when flat on, but at least armor that doesn't disintegrate on deflecting these shots), because I sure can't. (Please excuse my noobishness) Edit: Also, does anyone know what this kind of projectile would do if fired at todays earth? P.s. This is not meant to be a practical weapon, in case someone thinks that. The only real use I can come up with is bombardment of celestial bodies with non nuclear weapons/ with heavy defensive capabilities where nuclear missiles or missiles in general are not an option. ...I think that you may have just made a miniature MAC. EDIT: well, you have a muzzle velocity of 23.9 km/s and a muzzle energy of just under 300 tons TNT. I honestly can't think of an armor combination that would reasonably be able to withstand that, but given the reload time you wouldn't need it, you'd just need two drones, one to take the shot and the other to close the distance and murder you to death. Or heck, just one ship capable of reasonable sideways acceleration. As for what happens if you fire it at Earth (sidenote, my numbers may not be correct and my conclusions probably aren't, but I'm using standard drag formulae and drag coefficients for thin, face-on discs and this is what I got)? I think you may have inadvertently made a self-forging projectile. So the ultimate yield strength (e.g. when it blows apart into hypervelocity shrapnel) is 700 MPa; running the calcs using this equation the disc needs to run into something with a density of around 2.2 kg/m 3 to get those kinds of stresses acting on the projectile. The issue is that the atmosphere doesn't get above 2.0 kg/m 3 at sea level , so the pancake should deform without shearing into pieces. What this means practically is that you get massive forces acting on the edges of the projectile as it descends, pulling them back so that the greatest forces are now acting on the new edge of the smaller pancake, which deform themselves, so on and so forth, so that the thing that hits your ground target looks much more like a cigar than a pancake. I'm not sure whether frictional heating would be sufficient to destroy it as it descends and I can't find a reliable set of equations for that, but that's what I surmise would happen. If someone could check my math I'd be obliged. As for when/if it actually hits? Let's just say that you wouldn't want to get hit with 300 tons of TNT all at once. It's a firecracker compared to most modern nukes but it's much more concentrated and it's definitely going to ruin someone's day. |
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Post by teeth on Feb 12, 2017 19:26:07 GMT
20 meter bore and 5 ton projectile? What's the muzzle velocity? That that information I can estimate what it might do to Earth, assuming it's heat shielded and loses no mass from ablation and no speed from drag.
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Post by Enderminion on Feb 12, 2017 19:34:13 GMT
I would try 10 or more meters of Boron (botton of the list) backed by a few cm of Iridum backed by a few meters of para-aramid fiber. possibley with a 3mm thick wipple shield of Titanium with one of the areogels stuffing the gap
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Post by caiaphas on Feb 12, 2017 19:34:45 GMT
20 meter bore and 5 ton projectile? What's the muzzle velocity? That that information I can estimate what it might do to Earth, assuming it's heat shielded and loses no mass from ablation and no speed from drag. I pasted it into my designs and it's got a muzzle velocity of 23.9 km/s and a muzzle energy of around 295 tons TNT. |
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Post by teeth on Feb 12, 2017 19:54:38 GMT
I don't think any non-bugged armor could protect against that, it'd hit with enough force to break the internal frame or possibly even kill crew from G forces depending on the weight of the ship. The only thing that could protect you from that is a monstrously large battleship bigger than anything coade can (probably) handle, or not getting hit.
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Feb 12, 2017 20:39:59 GMT
caiaphas I realize this isn't really a useful design in fleet combat (Although, it did seem somewhat effective against massed capitals, i.e. laser frigates, if it got a lucky hit and the debris of a torn in half ship hit several others). It also might be a viable ground installation for inter body artillery or long ranged anti capital fire in batteries with massed fire. Enderminion I realize that several dozen meter thick composite armor can easily absorb these rounds. In my tests, 10m of graphite aerogel with a 1cm diamond wipel shield and a backing of 1cm diamond was enough to magically absorb the shots, seemingly without sustaining noticeable damage. This irks me greatly, since impacts at these energy levels should leave large glowing craters that are meters deep at the very least. A fact that is supported by testing on laser frigates, hows, admittedly thin armor seems to detonate, even on glancing shots, where the projectile doesn't even shatter. Rather than absorbing shots, I'm looking for armor capable of deflecting them without being annihilated in the process. (By which I mean armor capable of deflecting multiple hits within a reasonably small, r<25cm, area) teeth it has a velocity of 23.9Km/s, yielding a kinetic energy of around 1.5TJ or around 340 tons of TnT. (It's basically a pocket nuke with all the energy going forward) On the subject of what happens if earth gets hit by one of these: the effects seem a bit more tame then I first thought they would be. As far as I've been able to tell objects of this size and velocity tend to disintegrate rather explosively when they hit the inner atmosphere ( Chelyabinsk meteor is a very rough equivalent). As far as I can tell, a mixture of the deformation stress, heat expansion and weakening due to high temperature should cause it to explosively disintegrate before contact, causing sort of tear shaped blast with a good portion of the blast directed in the direction of travel and little directed in the opposite direction. Effectively, it's a roughly 300 ton of TnT air burst. If it disintegrates close enough to the ground, high velocity fragments would probably shred anything the blast didn't obliterate as well. As far as it hitting the ground, that seems the energy would be spent in an interesting variety of ways: a lot of the mass of the projectile and the surrounding solids/liquids into plasma and gas. These, combined with the material being displaced by the slug as it travels, create blast wave. If the slug hits solid matter, a not insignificant portion of the energy also goes into liquefying surrounding materials as well. The generated blast wave is significantly dampened by material it throws outwards, as it is generated mostly under the surface of the impacted object. Another part of the projectile energy goes into generating shock waves into the impacted medium. In short: theres probably an easy way to get a ballpark number for the detonation force at impact, but I'm to novice a physicist to know it. Also, any accurate numbers or even good estimations probably require a simulation of an impact event. Edit: I don't think any non-bugged armor could protect against that, it'd hit with enough force to break the internal frame or possibly even kill crew from G forces depending on the weight of the ship. The only thing that could protect you from that is a monstrously large battleship bigger than anything coade can (probably) handle, or not getting hit. True. The point about acceleration due to being hit is true. In testing even hits on solar panels radiators noticeably accelerated targets (probably to a few or even a few tens of m/s, but I didn't bother to check at the time). A stationary target I made to test armor was accelerated by over 100m/s² in just 5 shots in one test, despite the projectiles passing clean through the ship. Edit: Playing Ksp and this game one after the other is confusing
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Post by teeth on Feb 12, 2017 20:48:06 GMT
True. The point about acceleration due to being hit is true. In testing even hits on solar panels noticeably accelerated targets (probably to a few or even a few tens of m/s, but I didn't bother to check at the time). A stationary target I made to test armor was accelerated by over 100m/s² in just 5 shots in one test, despite the projectiles passing clean through the ship. I assume you're using radiators to simulate the mass of solar panels, unless you somehow modded in solar panels or it's a typo. |
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Post by Enderminion on Feb 12, 2017 20:48:56 GMT
I never thought about bugged armour but Boron is very good armour for kinetic strikes, you need to back it with fiber because it spalls
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Feb 12, 2017 21:31:24 GMT
I never thought about bugged armour but Boron is very good armour for kinetic strikes, you need to back it with fiber because it spalls Spalling may actually be on of the less pressing issues. One of the more rare challenges that armor faces is absorbing the impulse of an impact. Deflecting a projectiles requires you to give them motion and thus impulse. The armor must of course absorb the same impulse in the opposite direction. If the armor is unable to absorb the impulse, it ruptures. High impulse guns are rare, since the point of KE weapons is to deliver as much kinetic energy with as little impulse as possible (since impulse is conserved and is related only to movement, so you do to yourself what you do to the enemy in terms of impulse. Kinetic energy on the other hand is taken from other sources.), however some howitzers in WW2 (specifically the ML-20 gun) fired heavy APHE rounds. These were known to rupture the frontal plates of tanks such as the German Panther when deflected (there are some pretty impressive pictures of this, but I can't seem to find them any more). To my surprise, this is actually seems to be modeled in game. These things often tore huge holes into armor on deflection, though these weren't protected from spalling. However I doubt spalling is responsible for the sudden disappearance of half the armor of one side a laser frigate. I very much doubt that even thick boron sheets can withstand the applied pressures. Then again, 10m is a thick plate to rupture. I might do the math on that sometime. |
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Post by caiaphas on Feb 12, 2017 21:59:53 GMT
I never thought about bugged armour but Boron is very good armour for kinetic strikes, you need to back it with fiber because it spalls Spalling may actually be on of the less pressing issues. One of the more rare challenges that armor faces is absorbing the impulse of an impact. Deflecting a projectiles requires you to give them motion and thus impulse. The armor must of course absorb the same impulse in the opposite direction. If the armor is unable to absorb the impulse, it ruptures. High impulse guns are rare, since the point of KE weapons is to deliver as much kinetic energy with as little impulse as possible (since impulse is conserved and is related only to movement, so you do to yourself what you do to the enemy in terms of impulse. Kinetic energy on the other hand is taken from other sources.), however some howitzers in WW2 (specifically the ML-20 gun) fired heavy APHE rounds. These were known to rupture the frontal plates of tanks such as the German Panther when deflected (there are some pretty impressive pictures of this, but I can't seem to find them any more). To my surprise, this is actually seems to be modeled in game. These things often tore huge holes into armor on deflection, though these weren't protected from spalling. However I doubt spalling is responsible for the sudden disappearance of half the armor of one side a laser frigate. I very much doubt that even thick boron sheets can withstand the applied pressures. Then again, 10m is a thick plate to rupture. I might do the math on that sometime. Would it even be possible to mount engines on a monolithic 10 meter sheet of boron capable of moving that thing? |
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Post by lieste on Feb 12, 2017 22:04:57 GMT
How does moving a 887,000 ton coil gun, which takes 72ish hours to charge between each shot and requires 15,000,000 tons of electrical storage support and is 500m long compare to the troubles caused by a 10m armour plate?
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Post by caiaphas on Feb 12, 2017 22:08:03 GMT
How does moving a 887,000 ton coil gun, which takes 72ish hours to charge between each shot and requires 15,000,000 tons of electrical storage support and is 500m long compare to the troubles caused by a 10m armour plate? You could probably fire a fleet-killer MIRV missile with this coilgun, now that I come to think of it. |
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Post by omnipotentvoid on Feb 12, 2017 22:42:17 GMT
How does moving a 887,000 ton coil gun, which takes 72ish hours to charge between each shot and requires 15,000,000 tons of electrical storage support and is 500m long compare to the troubles caused by a 10m armour plate? That depends actually. If I built a ship capable of fielding the gun, I'd have to armor those 150,000,000 tons of electrical equipment, plus the crew, fuel, engines and reactors. This ship would probably be several kilometers long and at leas a hundred wide. 10m of monolithic boron around that is quite a bit of trouble. Thats why I said these weren't ship weapons. The only time these would be in any way viable is in batteries, on large asteroids moon or planetoids with little to no atmosphere, to shred incoming capital fleets before they make orbit. |
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Post by deltav on Feb 13, 2017 5:05:46 GMT
The first thing I've been trying to do in CoaDE is making cannons with ridiculous muzzle energies. After derping my way to a few 20-30MJ designs that might almost be useful in a few niche circumstances, I came up with this: CoilgunModule 20m Coilgun "Doomhammer"
UsesCustomName true
PowerConsumption_W 5.5e+006
Coil
Composition Vanadium Chromium Steel
WireRadius_m 0.1
NumberOfTurns 50
NumberOfLayers 20
NumberOfStages 50
BarrelArmorThickness_m 0.012
Armature
Composition Nickel Iron Molybdenum
BoreRadius_m 10
Mass_kg 5000
Tracer silver
Payload null
Loader
PowerConsumtion_W 1e+008
Turret
InnerRadius_m 30
ArmorComposition Maraging Steel
ArmorThickness_m 0.003
MomentumWheels
Composition Platinum
RotationalSpeed_RPM 2.7
TargetsShips true
TargetsShots false
My next thought was: "how does one stop one of these rounds?" My attempts were met with failure after failure. Even armor that deflected the shots if at extreme angles was wrecked by doing so, sometimes even destroying modules beneath the armor. Ricochets were capable (sometimes) of destroying laser frigates. Hits directly to the sides were often tearing ships a part and even shots landing almost at the edge were still penetrating. Direct frontal hits almost always resulted in instant kills. I finally managed to create an armor setup that could "withstand" the shots: 1cm of diamond followed by 10m of graphite aerogel followed by a 1cm diamond wipelshield 4m away from the aerogel. However, I am not sure if this was actually withstanding the impacts or bugging out, since the armor did not get damaged, even after repeated hits to the same area and most impacts didn't even leave an entry hole. Can somebody here come up with at least reasonably practical armor that can stop these rounds (perhaps not when flat on, but at least armor that doesn't disintegrate on deflecting these shots), because I sure can't. (Please excuse my noobishness) Edit: Also, does anyone know what this kind of projectile would do if fired at todays earth? P.s. This is not meant to be a practical weapon, in case someone thinks that. The only real use I can come up with is bombardment of celestial bodies with non nuclear weapons/ with heavy defensive capabilities where nuclear missiles or missiles in general are not an option. I put this in but couldn't get it to work. What am I missing? Attachments:
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