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Post by deltav on Jan 27, 2017 4:47:36 GMT
On a personal note, I would love if the weapon designs in game were as close to real as possible, in that if you took a real coilgun or railgun, put in the stats, and you would get the same performance in game as a real coilgun or railgun. That would be amazing.
I think eventually it will get there, but I imagine just modeling that alone would be quite a task, and Qswitched has his hands full.
I understand a member on this board took a real life cannon from the battleship days, put in all the stats based on the gun, and got back very similar performance, although the weight was much higher, because in game gun barrels are modeled as solid tubes instead of composite layers.
I think we have to consider the limitations of the game in that it is a game.
The realism capable in a game like this is unprecedented though isn't it?
Has there ever been a game that has tried to scientifically model space combat with complete detail and realism?
The thing is though, that maintainance is not modeled in game. In real life, rail guns wear out after a few shots.
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Post by bluuetechnic on Jan 27, 2017 6:39:03 GMT
On a personal note, I would love if the weapon designs in game were as close to real as possible, in that if you took a real coilgun or railgun, put in the stats, and you would get the same performance in game as a real coilgun or railgun. That would be amazing. I think eventually it will get there, but I imagine just modeling that alone would be quite a task, and Qswitched has his hands full. I understand a member on this board took a real life cannon from the battleship days, put in all the stats based on the gun, and got back very similar performance, although the weight was much higher, because in game gun barrels are modeled as solid tubes instead of composite layers. I think we have to consider the limitations of the game in that it is a game. The realism capable in a game like this is unprecedented though isn't it? Has there ever been a game that has tried to scientifically model space combat with complete detail and realism? The thing is though, that maintainance is not modeled in game. In real life, rail guns wear out after a few shots. Yeah, this is very similar to my thoughts in my capacitors thread, though I more specifically pointed out how to possibly achieve that. Also, I asked for essentially the opposite of the ability to plug in real stats; I want the source formula so we can manually calculate out the statistics of our weapons. I actually want that even more so now than with a more realistic system, because now we have no way of knowing what the formulas are, so we can't optimize our weapons, whereas with a more realistic system we would have at least a basis for our numbers. (My desire for manually calculating this stuff out actually comes from the fighting game player/frame data side of me, not my love for math and science funnily enough)
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Post by Enderminion on Jan 27, 2017 12:06:32 GMT
I don't know how I build things, I just do. I start with a rough idea of what I want the weapon to do and work from there.
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hast5250
New Member
Location: Nuking you from orbit.
Posts: 26
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Post by hast5250 on Jan 27, 2017 14:59:54 GMT
Introducing the Octoflack coilgun! It may be a little broken, but it works a charm! It shoots these little guys, they tip the scales at 10 kg, the bomb itself weighs in at 7.9 kg. Attachments:
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Post by lieste on Jan 27, 2017 16:23:32 GMT
Huh. Utterly bonkers broken coil gun design. Who wuda-thunk-it?
The single shot consumes 526MJ, and the rate of fire requires an efficiency of 4500%.
To match the power draw at 1 round per second should limit the velocity to 1.43km/s or by assuming a capacitor provides the per-shot energy with no inefficiency, the rate of fire to one round every 27.6 seconds (or a power of 526MW for the given rof and velocity)
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hast5250
New Member
Location: Nuking you from orbit.
Posts: 26
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Post by hast5250 on Jan 27, 2017 17:56:49 GMT
that's really broken!
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Post by lieste on Jan 27, 2017 18:49:38 GMT
As a note, at the current 200J/kg for high voltage capacitors, the required mass to store one shot worth of power for this coilgun is 2.6 kt - which makes the difference between a "light" coil and a heavy rail type a lot closer than the current implementation...
Revised - seen a higher value for power capacitors of ~360J/kg - still more than 1.5kt for the listed coilgun though.
(also the rate of fire from a given input power will always be below 50% efficiency due to the charging function of a capacitor bank, so a 526MW shot will require *at least* 55.4 seconds from a 19MW reactor, and to break 1 round per second would require 570MW or more of power).
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Post by argonbalt on Jan 27, 2017 19:25:00 GMT
Exactly why we need capacitors for an exact sense of realistic implementation
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Post by deltav on Jan 29, 2017 2:22:18 GMT
I just had a thought, related but unrelated to this thread. In a realistic depiction of space combat, it's very likely that hypervelocity rounds would be outlawed by interplanetary treaty much as hollowpoint rounds, and nuclear or biological rounds, and most classes of non self terminating land mines are outlawed in war today. Unlike missiles, drones and lasers, which would destroy themselves or deactivate after they are used (and can be easily detected), hypervelocity rounds would continue on at high speed, perhaps almost forever, posing a danger to ships, stations and craft long after the conflict has ended. www.ranker.com/list/banned-weapons/richard-rowe
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Post by apophys on Jan 29, 2017 5:19:57 GMT
deltav A few problems with that: 1. Everything flying at high speed is a hypervelocity round. This includes a missile. Or a warship. 2. Any damage to an enemy ship creates hypervelocity debris. 3. Extreme velocities will actually escape the solar system, making themselves non-destructive if they miss their target. 4. Space is very, very empty. It's unlikely that stray bullets will hit anything important. 5. Micrometeoroids can be considered naturally-ocurring hypervelocity rounds. You already shield for these, so stray bullets are nothing special. 6. Who is enforcing that treaty? And how? The only treaty I can see occurring is a ban on intentionally causing Kessler Syndrome around a planet.
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Post by lieste on Jan 29, 2017 5:33:25 GMT
I just had a thought, related but unrelated to this thread. In a realistic depiction of space combat, it's very likely that hypervelocity rounds would be outlawed by interplanetary treaty much as hollowpoint rounds, and nuclear or biological rounds, and most classes of non self terminating land mines are outlawed in war today. Unlike missiles, drones and lasers, which would destroy themselves or deactivate after they are used (and can be easily detected), hypervelocity rounds would continue on at high speed, perhaps almost forever, posing a danger to ships, stations and craft long after the conflict has ended. www.ranker.com/list/banned-weapons/richard-roweLow velocity ammunition remains a problem. Higher velocity stuff is mostly less of a problem. At Earth anything above 47km/s is going to leave Sol, and by Jupiter it is anything above ~18.5km/s if not very close to the planet. Direction doesn't matter very much, only the magnitude, unless pointing "down" into the local body or by extreme luck by random interception. Closer in - this is trickier - combat around Mercury will result in local debris up to ~68km/s, again above that the missed shots will exit the solar system.
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Post by deltav on Jan 29, 2017 9:20:12 GMT
deltav A few problems with that: 1. Everything flying at high speed is a hypervelocity round. This includes a missile. Or a warship. 2. Any damage to an enemy ship creates hypervelocity debris. 3. Extreme velocities will actually escape the solar system, making themselves non-destructive if they miss their target. 4. Space is very, very empty. It's unlikely that stray bullets will hit anything important. 5. Micrometeoroids can be considered naturally-ocurring hypervelocity rounds. You already shield for these, so stray bullets are nothing special. 6. Who is enforcing that treaty? And how? The only treaty I can see occurring is a ban on intentionally causing Kessler Syndrome around a planet. Good points... however... (Apologizing in advance for wordiness of the explanations, but I want to explain my rationale which I think you will find interesting.) 1. There is a big difference between general debris, like random parts of armor and so forth (already weakened chunks of carbon-carbon), including that of expired missiles and drones on the one hand, vs the very dense and hardened material (metglas or beryllium copper) used in hypervelocity rounds on the other hand. (It would be like me throwing a ball of rubber at your head at high speed, or a baseball at your head with the same velocity.) Whipple shields could stop the first, but the second would still be deadly methinks. 2. Same point. (My point is not the speed alone, but the fact that the speed is matched with it's dense, and armor penetrating quality intact, unlike missiles and drones which have had their material ruined/weakened severely). 3. That could be for rounds that completely miss, but what about the ones that just clip the enemy, or go straight through? 4. Yes space is "empty" mostly, but space battles will for the most part only happen at vital points around important "chokepoints" near particularly advantageous orbits/ Lagrange points of important planets, asteroids, etc, that are vital to hold for some reason or another. If the area is unimportant, it makes no sense for any crew to be willing to risk death to hold or defend it. Therefore it is at these points that rounds would form in orbits much like space trash has around earth. 5. Yes micrometeorites are hypervelocity, but they aren't made of weapons grade refined and hardened armor penetrating materials. Micrometeorites shatter on contact with whipple shields, metglas or beryllium copper does not. 6. Like any treaty, at least I mean the conventions of war like the geneva convention, every major power cooperates for the fact that it makes it easier on everyone. The restrictions of the development of Battleships, Subs, etc over a certain tonnage after WW1 comes to mind, or the restrictions on the use of weapons of mass destruction. No matter how hot the proxy wars between the US and the USSR got, they didn't want to get into dirty nuclear wars as they ruined things for everyone. (Sort of like rules during a boxing match, rules the sides agree on makes for a better fight that is more clean, and less damaging overall even if you lose.) Just my theorizing, maybe it's all crap lol. By I just had this thought, that the rounds we shoot from our coilguns and railguns will continue mostly intact forever in orbit around the important planets and asteroids we are fighting over still retaining almost all their lethality. Just like the area around earth is full of so much space trash, it's starting to be a problem, imagine how much worse it would be if that debris was instead composed of high penetration rounds that rip right through most armor?
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Post by deltav on Jan 29, 2017 9:34:30 GMT
I just had a thought, related but unrelated to this thread. In a realistic depiction of space combat, it's very likely that hypervelocity rounds would be outlawed by interplanetary treaty much as hollowpoint rounds, and nuclear or biological rounds, and most classes of non self terminating land mines are outlawed in war today. Unlike missiles, drones and lasers, which would destroy themselves or deactivate after they are used (and can be easily detected), hypervelocity rounds would continue on at high speed, perhaps almost forever, posing a danger to ships, stations and craft long after the conflict has ended. www.ranker.com/list/banned-weapons/richard-roweLow velocity ammunition remains a problem. Higher velocity stuff is mostly less of a problem. At Earth anything above 47km/s is going to leave Sol, and by Jupiter it is anything above ~18.5km/s if not very close to the planet. Direction doesn't matter very much, only the magnitude, unless pointing "down" into the local body or by extreme luck by random interception. Closer in - this is trickier - combat around Mercury will result in local debris up to ~68km/s, again above that the missed shots will exit the solar system. Good points, if the round misses completely, I think you are right. It should continue straight on it's way out the solar system. keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1360310353If it clips the enemy ship, or goes straight through, perhaps not. It should slow down quite a bit. Perhaps you are on the right track. Maybe it's gun rounds that are the real danger, not the hypervelocity rounds. Interesting.
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Post by caiaphas on Jan 29, 2017 9:50:41 GMT
deltav A few problems with that: 1. Everything flying at high speed is a hypervelocity round. This includes a missile. Or a warship. 2. Any damage to an enemy ship creates hypervelocity debris. 3. Extreme velocities will actually escape the solar system, making themselves non-destructive if they miss their target. 4. Space is very, very empty. It's unlikely that stray bullets will hit anything important. 5. Micrometeoroids can be considered naturally-ocurring hypervelocity rounds. You already shield for these, so stray bullets are nothing special. 6. Who is enforcing that treaty? And how? The only treaty I can see occurring is a ban on intentionally causing Kessler Syndrome around a planet. Good points... however... (Apologizing in advance for wordiness of the explanations, but I want to explain my rationale which I think you will find interesting.) 1. There is a big difference between general debris, like random parts of armor and so forth (already weakened chunks of carbon-carbon), including that of expired missiles and drones on the one hand, vs the very dense and hardened material (metglas or beryllium copper) used in hypervelocity rounds on the other hand. (It would be like me throwing a ball of rubber at your head at high speed, or a baseball at your head with the same velocity.) Whipple shields could stop the first, but the second would still be deadly methinks. 2. Same point. (My point is not the speed alone, but the fact that the speed is matched with it's dense, and armor penetrating quality intact, unlike missiles and drones which have been ruined/weakened severely). 3. Extreme velocities wouldn't necessarily escape the solar system, as that takes in general directed propulsive action. Independent of that, even at high velocities, undirected fragments tend to over time form in orbits much like every other body in the solar system. (If simply being high velocity meant escaping the solar system, then we wouldn't have a solar system in the first place, everything ever launched into space from earth, which is 11.186 km/s, would just continue forever unless it was stopped by something). 4. Yes space is "empty" mostly, but space battles will for the most part only happen at vital points around important "chokepoints" near particularly advantageous orbits/ Lagrange points of important planets, asteroids, etc, that are vital to hold for some reason or another. If the area is unimportant, it makes no sense for any crew to be willing to risk death to hold or defend it. Therefore it is at these points that debris from hypervelocity rounds would form in orbits much like space trash has around earth. 5. Yes micrometeorites are hypervelocity, but they aren't made of weapons grade refined and hardened armor penetrating materials. Micrometeorites shatter on contact with whipple shields, metglas or beryllium copper does not. 6. Like any treaty, at least I mean the conventions of war like the geneva convention, every major power cooperates for the fact that it makes it easier on everyone. The restrictions of the development of Battleships, Subs, etc over a certain tonnage after WW1 comes to mind, or the restrictions on the use of weapons of mass destruction. No matter how hot the proxy wars between the US and the USSR got, they didn't want to get into dirty nuclear wars as they ruined things for everyone. (Sort of like rules during a boxing match, rules the sides agree on makes for a better fight that is more clean, and less damaging overall even if you lose.) Just my theorizing, maybe it's all crap lol. By I just had this thought, that the rounds we shoot from our coilguns and railguns will continue mostly intact forever in orbit around the important planets and asteroids we are fighting over still retaining almost all their lethality. Just like the area around earth is full of so much space trash, it's starting to be a problem, imagine how much worse it would be if that debris was instead composed of high penetration rounds that rip right through most armor? 1. Which would be true if most of the stuff we use for armor (layers of osmium, amorphous carbon, diamond filled with gel for laser defense) isn't also the same stuff we're throwing out of our railguns/coilguns. Which is to say, heavy, dense pieces of shrapnel. I will concede that they may be structurally (insofar as they matters for a hypervelocity projectile, which, since the main mechanism for action for something as small as a gram is mainly kinetic rather than momentum, not much) weakened by physical stress or heating. 2. Same point. 3. The velocity you need to reach from Earth's orbit (presuming you're pointed in the right direction) to escape the solar system is a paltry 16.6 km/s. I have PD coilguns that shoot that fast. What you say is true, and the dV you need to escape from solar gravity is immense, but you're forgetting that the bodies we fight around have their own velocities relative to the sun, and contribute that to our escape velocities. Granted, if we're fighting around Jupiter, for which you need 60 km/s to escape the solar system, that's going to be a little more of an issue, but again, we have railguns capable of those muzzle velocities. 4. ...yes, but the space around those is also really, really empty and really, really big. 5. Again, when you're dealing with a one-gram projectile, it doesn't really matter what the heck you make it of, rock or osmium or whatever, the amount of kinetic energy contained in it is going to immediately turn it into a ball of plasma. The main mechanism of damage for stuff like that isn't momentum, for which the structural integrity of your projectile would be relevant (you want it to stick together long enough to punch through the armor), but kinetic energy. Also, I don't think you fully understand what a Whipple shield does. It's not there to shatter projectiles, it's there as a sacrificial layer to turn incoming projectiles into plasma; as the plasma travels through the space between the shield and the main armor, it rapidly disperses, such that there's much less mechanical stress on the main armor when it does hit (same mass same velocity, spread out over a much wider area). 6. I think it's pretty clear that the Republic doesn't give a rat's ass about waging gentlemanly war.
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Post by Easy on Jan 29, 2017 12:59:31 GMT
Many of those weapons are not actually banned or have a major power such as the USA not a signatory.
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