|
Post by jageriv on Jan 9, 2017 3:19:23 GMT
Oh wow that is an intimidating wall, i will reply to this fully tomorrow hopefully when i get the time! I think it is important to specify the scenario a bit as especially when discussing colonisation the time span range and target goal/starting incident triggering colonisation will drastically change depending on details. For this one i was generally considering a crisis point scenario where evacuating the most people possible regardless of technical skills was the impetus, and i tried to strike a middle ground as i got the impression that others here would be even more Randian with the selection process. As before hopefully i will go into detail tomorrow, but on a larger note i may make a new thread so as not to dilute this colony ship design one any further. Oh yeah, its a lot of ground. don't be afraid to break it down into more digestable chunks. I basically ask you to do as such by the end of it, since there's so many different topics to hit on.
|
|
|
Post by thorneel on Jan 9, 2017 10:10:19 GMT
Yeah, this suggests some serious divergences between our thoughts regarding menial laborers: namely their importance and why they exist. You seem to hold the very elitist sounding option on why they are around, because their "dumb dumbs", rather than because they are a crucial part of the system, and would likely be part of any such system that still operated on human capabilities and biology. This is the biggest problem I have with this argument: people who end up in such jobs are not necessarily less smart, and certainly not less worthy. Contempt for the lower classes and holding them as responsible for their lower situation due to their own deficiencies has often be popular in history (i.e. calling them "dumb dumbs"), and it never ended well. Incidentally, colonising Mars may be the single most idiotic thing we can do as a species in the near future, as long as underground (or even past) Martian life has not been ruled out: leaving aside the risks of two alien ecosystems colliding and the incalculable damage this may do to either (homo sapiens included), if we ever find unknown micro-organisms on Mars later, it will be too late to determine if it is native or imported. Also Mars sand. It gets everywhere. It's not as if Mars was the only choice, nor the easiest by a big margin.
|
|
|
Post by newageofpower on Jan 9, 2017 15:47:47 GMT
This is the biggest problem I have with this argument: people who end up in such jobs are not necessarily less smart, and certainly not less worthy. Contempt for the lower classes and holding them as responsible for their lower situation due to their own deficiencies has often be popular in history (i.e. calling them "dumb dumbs"), and it never ended well. Well said. You will notice I did not classify people according to socioeconomic strata, but by objective parameters (generalized intelligence is pretty well defined, as an example) to avoid unjustifiable crap.
|
|
|
Post by apophys on Jan 9, 2017 15:51:02 GMT
Incidentally, colonising Mars may be the single most idiotic thing we can do as a species in the near future, as long as underground (or even past) Martian life has not been ruled out: leaving aside the risks of two alien ecosystems colliding and the incalculable damage this may do to either (homo sapiens included), if we ever find unknown micro-organisms on Mars later, it will be too late to determine if it is native or imported. Also Mars sand. It gets everywhere. It's not as if Mars was the only choice, nor the easiest by a big margin. Although it is somewhat likely for there to be life deep underground on Mars, it would be evolved for that environment, more so than any Earth organisms. We can't do serious damage unless we start terraforming. On the other hand, I see no damage whatsoever possible to humanity or Earth's ecosystem. That is, barring certain... implausible events...
|
|
|
Post by The Astronomer on Jan 9, 2017 15:53:45 GMT
Incidentally, colonising Mars may be the single most idiotic thing we can do as a species in the near future, as long as underground (or even past) Martian life has not been ruled out: leaving aside the risks of two alien ecosystems colliding and the incalculable damage this may do to either (homo sapiens included), if we ever find unknown micro-organisms on Mars later, it will be too late to determine if it is native or imported. Also Mars sand. It gets everywhere. It's not as if Mars was the only choice, nor the easiest by a big margin. Although it is somewhat likely for there to be life deep underground on Mars, it would be evolved for that environment, more so than any Earth organisms. We can't do serious damage unless we start terraforming. On the other hand, I see no damage whatsoever possible to humanity or Earth's ecosystem. That is, barring certain... implausible events... *SCREAMS*
HOLY F**K THE F**KING COCKROACHES FROM TERRAFORMARS! KILL. IT. NOW!(The epic reaction the first time I saw it)
|
|
|
Post by newageofpower on Jan 9, 2017 16:35:30 GMT
Sir, that was a terrible anime and you should feel ashamed of yourself.
|
|
|
Post by argonbalt on Jan 9, 2017 16:39:29 GMT
My favourite quote in reference to that show is a good friend of mine who is black watched like the first two episodes and came to me and was like:
OH MY GOD IT'S JUST PLANET OF THE BLACK PEOPLE! IT IS ACTUALLY JUST KAMEN RIDER ASTRONAUTS VS PLANET OF THE BLACK PEOPLE!
|
|
|
Post by bigbombr on Jan 9, 2017 16:44:32 GMT
Mercury seems the better choice for colonization, as Mercury sits the closest to the sun, it is able to harvest solar energy more effectively than other celestial bodies. Thus, they can make a lot of profit and spread their influence (soft power) by exporting power by the hundreds of GW's. Or they can use their laser-system (build for 'beaming power' and 'peaceful purposes) to incinerate their foes with unrivaled power (hard power). Mercury would have the most powerful lasernet (almost) by definition.
|
|
|
Post by apophys on Jan 9, 2017 17:04:26 GMT
Jupiter's moons can similarly harvest the crazy flux in its ionosphere. Jupiter's moons also have lots of ice. And possible future expansion into siphoning gases from the giant for fusion purposes.
|
|
|
Post by newageofpower on Jan 9, 2017 17:10:37 GMT
Jupiter's moons can similarly harvest the crazy flux in its ionosphere. Jupiter's moons also have lots of ice. And possible future expansion into siphoning gases from the giant for fusion purposes. The radiation, though... Also, Jupiter is much, much further from Hiigara Earth than Mercury/Venus/Mars. The Outer Solar system is a huge distance away.
|
|
|
Post by bigbombr on Jan 9, 2017 17:20:25 GMT
Jupiter's moons can similarly harvest the crazy flux in its ionosphere. Jupiter's moons also have lots of ice. And possible future expansion into siphoning gases from the giant for fusion purposes. The radiation, though... Also, Jupiter is much, much further from Hiigara Earth than Mercury/Venus/Mars. The Outer Solar system is a huge distance away. Indeed, these distances make them less relevant for interplanetary politics, as 1) they'll probably be colonized later, making them less developed by the time interplanetary politics become a thing, and 2) they're really far away, meaning trade, colonization and war are expensive and slow. This means that they will have trouble influencing actors at Mars, Earth and Mercury, as their reaction to a changing situation can take months.
|
|
|
Post by apophys on Jan 9, 2017 19:21:57 GMT
The radiation, though... Also, Jupiter is much, much further from Hiigara Earth than Mercury/Venus/Mars. The Outer Solar system is a huge distance away. Radiation can be shielded by a couple meters of ice. Digging down into bunkers (on any of the moons) shouldn't be too bad. Alternately, superconducting magnetic shielding can divert a lot of radiation (research is underway into such tech). Easy power from Jupiter's magnetic field makes this option particularly attractive. Europa is extremely interesting due to the liquid water ocean, making already-processed cheap propellant (for example, hydrogen NTR + MPD for long distance; water NTR or LOX+LH2 for local movement). Building underground habitats could become as simple as picking out a hole on the underside of the ice sheet and filling it with air (there is even oxygen in the tiny atmosphere), using rafts as floating houses (or attached to the ice ceiling), and using submarines for colony transport. A unique shirtsleeve environment with high air pressure and low gravity. On the outer end, Callisto has less radiation than Earth. It's certainly far away, but tantalizing.
|
|
|
Post by argonbalt on Jan 9, 2017 20:45:03 GMT
The general reason behind Mars is basically Lebensraum, it sits just a little too far in the deep end of the cold side of the habitable zone. This coupled with the fact that while it has some temperature flux, it is sometimes colder on Earth, has atmosphere that is thin but workable, water trapped in Ice and being relatively proximate to Earth in both space and size, makes it really attractive. Of course it will never be Earth 100% even after terraforming. But it would be invariably a huge chunk of real estate in terms of a potential biosphere and verdant land mass.
See naturally you could put up a dome just about anywhere but the idea is to terraform towards a stable biosphere, in which case no where really comes close for viability. Mercury could get allot of Solare power sure, but enjoy your tidally locked planet with two months of sun and two of night unless you are building square on the poles. Also sure the energy production is great but you can't really "export it" to sun poor world like Jupiter and the outer gas giants until some kind of colony on their end starts up.
|
|
|
Post by The Astronomer on Jan 10, 2017 0:19:43 GMT
If it was me, I would set up my first colonies on Luna (habitation), Mars (habitation) and Venus (agriculture), then send some Morovecs (human-intelligent robots) and AIs to Mercury (mining and power). Then, colonize the outer solar system. Jupiter's powerful magnetosphere can be used to generate a lot of electricity, Saturn (tourism), Uranus (mining methane and He-3) and Neptune (Mining methane and He-3)
|
|
|
Post by bigbombr on Jan 10, 2017 15:37:38 GMT
... Also sure the energy production is great but you can't really "export it" to sun poor world like Jupiter and the outer gas giants until some kind of colony on their end starts up. Energy and information are the two things most easily transported across interplanetary distances, they can both travel at light speed and don't have to be carried by a rocket. You could argue you need some infrastructure on the receiving end, but this can be simple fotovoltaic panels slapped on wherever. Mercury can just send a laser at those panels through the lasernet.
|
|