|
Post by jtyotjotjipaefvj on Aug 23, 2018 10:05:16 GMT
It looks like giving your ship any roll control is a mistake, the steering AI can't handle that many degrees of freedom. Just stick with ungimballed thrusters and keep your center of mass (almost) exactly at the long axis of your ship and you should be fine. See here for my test: Ship design which might work straight out the box: RCS test.txt (5.23 KB)
|
|
|
Post by anotherfirefox on Aug 23, 2018 10:10:54 GMT
It looks like giving your ship any roll control is a mistake, the steering AI can't handle that many degrees of freedom. Just stick with ungimballed thrusters and keep your center of mass (almost) exactly at the long axis of your ship and you should be fine. See here for my test: Ship design which might work straight out the box: No roll control recommended? OMG that's a death sentence to my doctrine. My partially aormored broadsiders have to roll exactly, otherwise they're living wrecks. Anyway thanks for the info, now I'm gonna be stuck at the corner and crying...
|
|
|
Post by jtyotjotjipaefvj on Aug 23, 2018 10:39:44 GMT
No roll control recommended? OMG that's a death sentence to my doctrine. My partially aormored broadsiders have to roll exactly, otherwise they're living wrecks. Anyway thanks for the info, now I'm gonna be stuck at the corner and crying... No rolling doesn't prevent you from using broadside designs. You can use reactors and radiators as counterweights for the armor. See here: This design can orient itself just fine, works exactly as the previous one.
|
|
|
Post by AtomHeartDragon on Aug 23, 2018 10:56:59 GMT
Disagreed. Roll is love, roll is life.
|
|
|
Post by anotherfirefox on Aug 23, 2018 10:59:40 GMT
No roll control recommended? OMG that's a death sentence to my doctrine. My partially aormored broadsiders have to roll exactly, otherwise they're living wrecks. Anyway thanks for the info, now I'm gonna be stuck at the corner and crying... No rolling doesn't prevent you from using broadside designs. You can use reactors and radiators as counterweights for the armor. See here: This design can orient itself just fine, works exactly as the previous one. So does your ship use pitch and yaw to orient broadside? :big revolving thinking face: :still thinking:
|
|
|
Post by AtomHeartDragon on Aug 23, 2018 11:36:23 GMT
So does your ship use pitch and yaw to orient broadside? :big revolving thinking face: :still thinking: You can reorient any way you want with just pitch and yaw - provided you either can afford it taking longer and sometimes going through unfavourable intermediate orientation(s), or are only orienting in a broad sense forfeiting fine control over orientation (for example a broadside with armed and armoured side towards the enemy but no way to pick which way the ship's long axis points). With things like high velocity flybys and laser barbecue rolls I generally find this deeply inadequate, so all my ships, but the smallest, stock module ones can roll.
|
|
|
Post by anotherfirefox on Aug 23, 2018 11:52:31 GMT
So does your ship use pitch and yaw to orient broadside? :big revolving thinking face: :still thinking: You can reorient any way you want with just pitch and yaw - provided you either can afford it taking longer and sometimes going through unfavourable intermediate orientation(s), or are only orienting in a broad sense forfeiting fine control over orientation (for example a broadside with armed and armoured side towards the enemy but no way to pick which way the ship's long axis points). With things like high velocity flybys and laser barbecue rolls I generally find this deeply inadequate, so all my ships, but the smallest, stock module ones can roll. That's why my face is still revolving + Can you give me some wisdom please?
|
|
|
Post by jtyotjotjipaefvj on Aug 23, 2018 12:09:09 GMT
This is not Top Gun: Space Edition. Unless you insist on using grossly unoptimal designs, this is literally the only maneuver you'll need in any situation ever:
|
|
|
Post by anotherfirefox on Aug 23, 2018 12:20:08 GMT
This is not Top Gun: Space Edition. Unless you insist on using grossly unoptimal designs, this is literally the only maneuver you'll need in any situation ever: But as they approach you have to orient out of the pitch/yaw plane...
|
|
|
Post by jtyotjotjipaefvj on Aug 23, 2018 12:32:13 GMT
This is not Top Gun: Space Edition. Unless you insist on using grossly unoptimal designs, this is literally the only maneuver you'll need in any situation ever: But as they approach you have to orient out of the pitch/yaw plane... That just means your guns are bad. If anything gets that close to you, you'll be dead no matter what you do against a well-optimized enemy. At under 100 km, the enemy will be free to use conventional guns or coilguns that go straight through any amount of armor, or lasers reaching intensities in the GW/m² range, which means the plasma cone it generates on penetrating your armor will punch a hole several meters wide through your internals.
|
|
|
Post by anotherfirefox on Aug 23, 2018 12:38:09 GMT
But as they approach you have to orient out of the pitch/yaw plane... That just means your guns are bad. If anything gets that close to you, you'll be dead no matter what you do against a well-optimized enemy. At under 100 km, the enemy will be free to use conventional guns or coilguns that go straight through any amount of armor, or lasers reaching intensities in the GW/m² range, which means the plasma cone it generates on penetrating your armor will punch a hole several meters wide through your internals. My lore and tactics hasn't evolved there yet and not anytime soon: it's just like, if railguns dominate Naval weapon the CWIS would be obsolete, but they're still a thing. Under my house-rule of technology I don't have AE class reactors nor lasers yet. My best railgun at given time is of <80km. f there's truly no way to implement roll on my ship I have no choice, but if there's way I would like to take it even if it's inefficient.
|
|
|
Post by AtomHeartDragon on Aug 23, 2018 20:09:18 GMT
You can reorient any way you want with just pitch and yaw - provided you either can afford it taking longer and sometimes going through unfavourable intermediate orientation(s), or are only orienting in a broad sense forfeiting fine control over orientation (for example a broadside with armed and armoured side towards the enemy but no way to pick which way the ship's long axis points). With things like high velocity flybys and laser barbecue rolls I generally find this deeply inadequate, so all my ships, but the smallest, stock module ones can roll. That's why my face is still revolving + Can you give me some wisdom please? Assume you're in a roll-incapable, asymmetrically armoured broadsider. That is oriented wrong side around to the enemy, who can clearly see your radiators face-on and is laughing at this embarrassing sight as we speak.
You would clearly want to roll, hiding both the radiators and weakly armoured flank, but showing some respect inducing turrets instead - but you can't.
That's actually not that much of a problem (assuming you can avoid getting swiss-cheesed while performing an unwieldy series of manoeuvres). First, you need to reorient nose forward towards the enemy, then it's simply the matter of reorienting to broadside but 90o from your original orientation (and you can pitch and yaw any way you want from nose forward - including into the broadside orientation your ship has been built for). Congratulations, you are now in the correct broadside orientation. Want to also have your long axis point any particular way? Pitch/yaw afterwards.
|
|
|
Post by AtomHeartDragon on Aug 23, 2018 21:36:59 GMT
This is not Top Gun: Space Edition. Unless you insist on using grossly unoptimal designs, this is literally the only maneuver you'll need in any situation ever: That only assumes that you're grossly outperforming the enemy and plays on many reasonable tactics being impossible in-game (like simultaneous intercepts from different angles).
You can also get very high velocity intercepts around large masses.
Finally, if you're using RCS and polygonal armour, roll is effectively free, even without gimbals.
|
|
|
Post by jtyotjotjipaefvj on Aug 23, 2018 21:55:44 GMT
That only assumes that you're grossly outperforming the enemy No, it only assumes that engagement ranges will be extremely long compared to the relative velocities between ships. In-game, you can easily deal a significant amount of damage out to a few Mm's of range, using either railguns or lasers. There's no way to close that distance cost effectively quickly enough to make use of pincer maneuvers or anything else to do with maneuvering really. Any curvature in your trajectory will increase your already strained dv requirements significantly. In reality, lasers would be even more powerful, with ranges reaching out to tens or hundreds of Mm's. With enough power, you'd hit light lag limits before running out of effective range on your laser. With ranges like that, small-scale maneuvering like rolling to face enemies can take days and you'll still have plenty of time. And if we're talking about real tactics, lateral thrusting would be far more important than rolling. That will actually let you avoid projectiles completely instead of just aligning your armor optimally. Spending dv isn't any cheaper around deep gravity wells. It just means you have to burn a lot of propellant to make the intercept in the first place. There's nothing stopping you from doing fast intercepts in flatter space. I don't see the benefits of rolling really. A sharp nose will be both more durable and easier to manage, and you will also always be able to bring all guns to bear on the enemy.
|
|
|
Post by anotherfirefox on Aug 23, 2018 22:30:02 GMT
That's why my face is still revolving + Can you give me some wisdom please? Assume you're in a roll-incapable, asymmetrically armoured broadsider. That is oriented wrong side around to the enemy, who can clearly see your radiators face-on and is laughing at this embarrassing sight as we speak.
You would clearly want to roll, hiding both the radiators and weakly armoured flank, but showing some respect inducing turrets instead - but you can't.
That's actually not that much of a problem (assuming you can avoid getting swiss-cheesed while performing an unwieldy series of manoeuvres). First, you need to reorient nose forward towards the enemy, then it's simply the matter of reorienting to broadside but 90o from your original orientation (and you can pitch and yaw any way you want from nose forward - including into the broadside orientation your ship has been built for). Congratulations, you are now in the correct broadside orientation. Want to also have your long axis point any particular way? Pitch/yaw afterwards.
nah i mean how to make my ship roll capable ._. Considering there's still some mystery you couldn't figure out I'm okay if you can't give me one
|
|