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Post by doctorsquared on Aug 11, 2018 2:25:22 GMT
Do I really need an anti-spalling layer if the armor is itself boron filament? Why even thinking about reinforced carbon-carbon if amorphous carbon has higher specific heat and is stronger? Why do default ships use it? CFRC is weaker than AC but is also less dense. What has the highest strength/density ratio between the two? You don't necessarily need an anti-spall layer, but if you're getting hit by a nuke or a large enough conventional HE payload, you're going to regret not having one. Reinforced Carbon is used commercially in actual space stations, including the ISS. Default ships use this because they're stock ships, not hyper-optimized like most of our ships. To be honest, ACC is a bit of a nebulous material. I presume it's just linked together carbon atoms, but I don't really get it. Coal, soot, and carbon freed from carbide compounds are all considered 'amorphous carbon' since the carbon atoms aren't all packed in close to each other (Graphite is mainly carbon atoms packed close together, Diamonds are squeezed together under extreme pressure to form dense crystals). Right now the only way to manufacture vast quantities of ACC is through chemical vapor deposition or sputtering of carbon onto a substrate, followed up by exposure to hydrogen gas to cap off the reactive ends to prevent oxidation from breaking the structure down.
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Post by AdmiralObvious on Aug 11, 2018 6:05:10 GMT
You don't necessarily need an anti-spall layer, but if you're getting hit by a nuke or a large enough conventional HE payload, you're going to regret not having one. Reinforced Carbon is used commercially in actual space stations, including the ISS. Default ships use this because they're stock ships, not hyper-optimized like most of our ships. To be honest, ACC is a bit of a nebulous material. I presume it's just linked together carbon atoms, but I don't really get it. Coal, soot, and carbon freed from carbide compounds are all considered 'amorphous carbon' since the carbon atoms aren't all packed in close to each other (Graphite is mainly carbon atoms packed close together, Diamonds are squeezed together under extreme pressure to form dense crystals). Right now the only way to manufacture vast quantities of ACC is through chemical vapor deposition or sputtering of carbon onto a substrate, followed up by exposure to hydrogen gas to cap off the reactive ends to prevent oxidation from breaking the structure down. I understood that. I meant that the game's version of Amorphous Carbon is a bit random. The material properties are probably correct, except the tensile and general yields.
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Post by anotherfirefox on Aug 14, 2018 13:24:18 GMT
don't exterminate my planet, but I followed your scheme and it's far better than stock armor, yay.
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Post by ddzirowan on Aug 15, 2018 23:19:05 GMT
don't exterminate my planet, but I followed your scheme and it's far better than stock armor, yay. W H A T A R E T H E C O O R D I N A T E S O F Y O U R S Y S T E M ? Anyway, the one here is outdated for me, I took away CFRC and replaced rubber with spider silk. Thanks, the part i like about my armor is that is cheap and light.
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Post by sage on Dec 30, 2020 19:29:32 GMT
How about my armor?
Light:
outermost 5 cm Amorphous Carbon 1 cm Polyethylene 1 m Graphite Areogel 2.5 cm Boron Filament 1.0 cm Aramid Fiber
Medium:
outermost 7.5 cm Amorphous Carbon 1.5 cm Polyethylene 1 m Graphite Areogel 5 cm Boron Filament 2.5 cm Aramid Fiber Innermost
Heavy:
outermost 10 cm Amorphous Carbon 2 cm Polyethylene 1 m Graphite Areogel 10 cm Boron Filament 5 cm Aramid Fiber Innermost
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Post by cipherpunks on Jan 1, 2021 21:48:23 GMT
outermost 7.5 cm Amorphous Carbon 1.5 cm Polyethylene 1 m Graphite Areogel 5 cm Boron Filament 2.5 cm Aramid Fiber Innermost Can you explain the thinking behind it? Why it is like it is? What are the layer roles? Also, why the same 1m of GAG for every variation?
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ghgh
Full Member
Still trying to make kinetics work.
Posts: 136
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Post by ghgh on Jan 3, 2021 14:02:28 GMT
Assuming that's all on one ship, it seems a bit excessive. Unless you have fusion rockets/power that ship isn't going anywhere fast. Even the lightest one, with 5cm of carbon, is going to be very expensive when wrapped around the ship, unless it's only used at the nose of the ship or around key components such as reactors, magazines, hangers, and crew compartments. Also the placement seems a bit funky. Why is the bulk armor on the outside? AmCarbon is great as a bulk armor. It's a much cheaper alternative to the, albeit more realistic RCC.
I do think you have a good material choice. The meter of graphogel and the 2.5 cm of aramid are equally great at sponging lasers and railguns. The polyethylene makes a good anti-laser shield too. I'd strip off the carbon and the boron. Maybe replace the polyethylene with an aluminum or tin whipple and make it a bit thinner, unless you are only fighting at laser range. Other than that its pretty "solid" armor layout... armor puns...
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Post by sage on Jan 3, 2021 20:47:40 GMT
outermost 7.5 cm Amorphous Carbon 1.5 cm Polyethylene 1 m Graphite Areogel 5 cm Boron Filament 2.5 cm Aramid Fiber Innermost Can you explain the thinking behind it? Why it is like it is? What are the layer roles? Also, why the same 1m of GAG for every variation? I compiled my armor method from number of post on armor. I started here with this post Which is why my first layer is amorphous carbon, the middle is graphite aerogel and one of the last layers is boron filament. At this point the graphite aerogel was only 1/4 meter to 1 meter. After reading some post I found out that over a meter was useless and under a meter reduced the effectiveness of the graphite aerogel. Which is why I left all of them at 1m .
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Post by sage on Jan 3, 2021 21:14:40 GMT
Assuming that's all on one ship, it seems a bit excessive. Unless you have fusion rockets/power that ship isn't going anywhere fast. Even the lightest one, with 5cm of carbon, is going to be very expensive when wrapped around the ship, unless it's only used at the nose of the ship or around key components such as reactors, magazines, hangers, and crew compartments. Also the placement seems a bit funky. Why is the bulk armor on the outside? AmCarbon is great as a bulk armor. It's a much cheaper alternative to the, albeit more realistic RCC. I do think you have a good material choice. The meter of graphogel and the 2.5 cm of aramid are equally great at sponging lasers and railguns. The polyethylene makes a good anti-laser shield too. I'd strip off the carbon and the boron. Maybe replace the polyethylene with an aluminum or tin whipple and make it a bit thinner, unless you are only fighting at laser range. Other than that its pretty "solid" armor layout... armor puns... It good to know that I got the Graphite Aerogel right. When I planned the armor, I was trying to have ever layer support each other in stopping kinetic and thermal weapons. The first layer had to be a dense hard material to break up projectiles as well as a good material against nuke flash. That why amorphous carbon was on the outside. The next layer had to disperse the impact force, which is the Graphite Aerogel The final layer needed to be a anti spall which is the boron filament. I then found out that my set up would only be good against low mass high speed rounds, but not good against low speed massive rounds. I then add the polyethlene as a combined whipple shield and anti-laser layer. I then found out form other post that I need a layer of thicker harder material to catch the larger chunks that don't break up in the Whipple shield. Which in their case the used boron filament. After which they used aramid fiber as their anti-spall All of the materials I use with the exception of Graphite Aerogel, can be used against kinetic and thermal. I wish not to use metal as they are weak against thermal weapons. The thickness of each material to make them good against both kinetic and thermal weapons, has been my problem. Which is why I asked. bulk armor I have seen that term a lot on a number of post. But no one has defined what is the point to have bulk armor.
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Echo
Full Member
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Post by Echo on Jan 4, 2021 10:51:46 GMT
Here's my take on armor (thicknesses are just indicative): Outermost - 5 mm Titanium Carbide (with 5 cm gap if you use the Whipple shield): super-hard and heat-resistant ceramic, great anti-nuke and sand-bouncer layer
- 5 mm Aluminum: optional Whipple shield, turns high-velocity projectiles/shrapnel into plasma (I don't know if realistically it would melt from radiators/nukes heating the Titanium Carbide layer, and this in turn heating the Whipple shield)
- 9 dm (9.5 dm if you don't use either the Whipple shield or the UHMWPE Fiber layer, 1 m if you don't use them both) Graphite Aerogel: for stuffed Whipple shield
- 7.5 mm UHMWPE Fiber with 5 cm gap: optional, the high speed of sound means that the armor material has a greater chance of reacting like a solid to incoming projectiles/shrapnel rather than a liquid, so it should help in slowing incoming projectiles/shrapnel down
- 7.5 mm Alpha-2 Titanium Aluminide: outermost layer of the bulk armor, heat-resistant in order to catch hot plasma and anti-laser layer (realistically speaking: the damage model is broken with organic fibers, and Amorphous Carbon might not have realistic properties)
- 5 mm Ceramic Matrix Composite: optional, someone claimed it worked, maybe because of its low Poisson's ratio
- 3 cm Boron Filament: innermost layer of the bulk armor, meant to stop kinketic penetrations
- 7.5 mm PBO Fiber: spall-liner, it stops spall from the bulk armor
Innermost
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Post by sage on Jan 6, 2021 5:33:34 GMT
Outermost - 5 mm Titanium Carbide (with 5 cm gap if you use the Whipple shield): super-hard and heat-resistant ceramic, great anti-nuke and sand-bouncer layer
- 5 mm Aluminum: optional Whipple shield, turns high-velocity projectiles/shrapnel into plasma (I don't know if realistically it would melt from radiators/nukes heating the Titanium Carbide layer, and this in turn heating the Whipple shield)
- 9 dm (9.5 dm if you don't use either the Whipple shield or the UHMWPE Fiber layer, 1 m if you don't use them both) Graphite Aerogel: for stuffed Whipple shield
- 7.5 mm UHMWPE Fiber with 5 cm gap: optional, the high speed of sound means that the armor material has a greater chance of reacting like a solid to incoming projectiles/shrapnel rather than a liquid, so it should help in slowing incoming projectiles/shrapnel down
- 7.5 mm Alpha-2 Titanium Aluminide: outermost layer of the bulk armor, heat-resistant in order to catch hot plasma and anti-laser layer (realistically speaking: the damage model is broken with organic fibers, and Amorphous Carbon might not have realistic properties)
- 5 mm Ceramic Matrix Composite: optional, someone claimed it worked, maybe because of its low Poisson's ratio
- 3 cm Boron Filament: innermost layer of the bulk armor, meant to stop kinketic penetrations
- 7.5 mm PBO Fiber: spall-liner, it stops spall from the bulk armor
Innermost That does help a lot, but also adds more question. First I thank you as I was having a problem knowing if my armor need to be mm or cm thick. Now I know most armor is mm with the bulk armor bring in cm (single digits). But it brings up a new list of questions. Amorphous Carbon is not realistic how? Why is Boron Filament ok and not amorphous carbon? What about aramid fiber? And most of all for this ship that you listed what type and size is it?
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Echo
Full Member
Posts: 141
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Post by Echo on Apr 27, 2021 10:24:36 GMT
Most likely the armor layout I posted is very heavy and would require a big ship with propellant mass measured in kt to get any decent dV. You might want to check AtomHeartDragon 's Dragon Claw Armaments [Core] Catalog for more practical designs. Regarding Amorphous Carbon, we can't find much data for its properties. Here's a quote from AtomHeartDragon that I dug up from Discord:
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Post by sage on Feb 18, 2022 2:05:00 GMT
Most likely the armor layout I posted is very heavy and would require a big ship with propellant mass measured in kt to get any decent dV. You might want to check AtomHeartDragon 's Dragon Claw Armaments [Core] Catalog for more practical designs. Regarding Amorphous Carbon, we can't find much data for its properties. Here's a quote from AtomHeartDragon that I dug up from Discord:
It been some time from my last post here. I would like to know if anyone ever found out what amorphous carbon we are using in this game.
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Echo
Full Member
Posts: 141
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Post by Echo on Feb 18, 2022 16:25:02 GMT
Nobody has discovered anything yet.
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Post by sage on Feb 20, 2022 3:14:19 GMT
Nobody has discovered anything yet. I'm also going to check in the steam board. Based on their answer as well I may have to redesign more armor all over again. As well as some of my parts as I use amorphous carbon a lot.
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