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Post by redparadize on Oct 22, 2016 21:37:41 GMT
someusername6:
Nice! I like that you went away from missiles. It had variety, and looking at your stuff it might also be a valid strategy.
I believe it would be a interesting to have our respective fleet fighting. I wonder how effectively I could break your defense. Spreading my drones on each engagement might not be enough, 3600 drones is kind of allot. One thing for sure, My ship will be out of your reach, I would be able to send all my offensive without having to worry about defense. It would all come down to how quick I could spread zap across the battlefield, dodge your drone and go for the Rigger. If I manage to get few trough, few of my 2.5kt nuke could destroy these radiator, and that exposed engine on the rear. my gun would need a slight focusing to pen and do serious damage.
However, if your ship are still alive and that my offensive capacity is gone, I would consider that would be more a defeat than a draw. I could escape, but you would still control Mars.
Edit: You convinced me to go with back to smaller drones, I went for bigger one only to save my FPS, not really a valid point for contest like that!
goduranus: Thanks! I found the error, it was my mistake, I misread the flare stats, 18ms instand of 18 sec. Missile were just burning before exiting!
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Post by beta on Oct 23, 2016 1:47:23 GMT
With the current questionable status of drone targeting systems, it is going to be hard to find setups that can reliably defeat large drone swarms. With missiles, you can pack enough flares to be immune to them, but drones ignore flares and act like a capital ship for targeting.
Hope proximity fuses get fixed in the next patch so frag rounds from guns can be used reliably. Seems like those would be an excellent counter to missiles and drones if you get the frag radius/density tuned well.
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Post by ross128 on Oct 23, 2016 2:03:38 GMT
Yeah, that situation with flares is pretty much why missile-screened drones form the core of my strategy. The missiles allow me to go light on drones by absorbing enemy point-defense, so I only need to bring enough drones to kill the targets instead of bringing enough to overwhelm PD. Actually getting hits with the missiles is a bonus, and running the enemy dry with missile waves just big enough to be threatening (~50 missiles, give or take some depending on enemy PD strength) is a backup plan to win by attrition.
Without a missile screen though, drones can be countered pretty hard by using lasers to strip weapons and radiators. Capital drones are more resistant to lasers, but can be attacked with missiles or your own drones as if they were capital ships.
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Post by redparadize on Oct 23, 2016 2:06:20 GMT
Beta: Indeed. As far as dodging goes, I know High speed drones going around 8kms or more will dodge rounds, because my own drones have difficulties hitting target if the interception is slightly off center. Even with even with high speed coilgun and fast turning turrets. I always mix missile drones with gun drones. That way I always get the 100km intercept and enemy can't both engage missiles and drone at the same time. Thats a even more serious flaw in the current targeting system if you ask me. It make combined saturation attack way too effective. ross128: Here is my missile defence, most missile explode 25 km away form my drone! My new drone have a low energy signature so these do the job. I also have heavier variant, since I don't use laser and coilgun I rarely get to use them.
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Post by trevlite on Oct 23, 2016 2:11:57 GMT
Could people post there user design file so that I can test my fleet against yours
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Post by redparadize on Oct 23, 2016 2:17:05 GMT
You want the full user design file? Mine is starting to be very long. I don't feel like going trough it to extract stuff. I hope we get separated design file at some point, it would be nice for cleanup!
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Post by ross128 on Oct 23, 2016 2:52:42 GMT
Mine was posted a page or two back, though it is quite full of random experiments.
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Post by goduranus on Oct 23, 2016 3:29:20 GMT
make a copy of your own design file and rename it, so you can go back without deleting all the modules individually.
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Post by redparadize on Oct 23, 2016 20:23:45 GMT
I don't know if anyone wish else wish to participate, but I think we can start discussing battle outcome between participant fleets. It is harder that I trough to compare them. First we really need a proper fleet posting format. Secondly, even when we manage to grasp what fleets look like it remain difficult to compare tactics that are so different, even between the most similar entry. Anyways, here we go! ----------------- magusunion fleet: ----------------- So after field testing, I've found out that "El Budget Lasero" is basically "El Crapio No bueno", because it is out ranged by a various assortment of vessels, as well as has terrible weak points in terms of taking enemy fire. So I've re-modified my submission for two of these: Light Force ProjectorsA refit of the stock Missile Schooner. Carries 200 stock Flak Missiles, 200 Striker Nuclear Missiles, and 8 coil guns for primary defense against drones that may intercept into your capital fleet. Using the "phased bombardment" technique, I was able to easily kill vessels twice the ships weight class, and maneuver around enemy drone fleets with my delta-V. Course, they usually take heavy losses in a ship-on-ship engagement. But since this challenge was more about cost effectiveness than actual combat, I decided a force projection vessel would be better overall. ----------- beta fleet: ----------- Here's an entry: Fleet concept of battle would be to separate into two separate fleets - the 4 Missile Corvette with the Destroyer, the 2 Gun Corvettes with the Laser Corvette. Plan of action would be to use the missile corvettes to shoot down drones/missiles fired at either fleet and to use offensive missiles to attempt to degrade the enemy fleet. The gun corvette fleet would then setup in a high-speed flyby of the enemy fleet aiming to get into weapons range as fast as possible to dump their rounds into targets. After the gun corvette fleet has completed their flyby, the destroyer fleet will make the final intercept to attempt to finish the enemy fleet off. Biggest concerns for this fleet would be large amounts of missiles/drones as defensive missiles stores are 800 missiles, and if you are desperate, the 400 offensive missiles. After that, you must rely on the destroyer/laser corvette's 13MW lasers and (mostly broken) flak railgun to intercept enemy munitions. Other concern would be the enemy fleet running the attacking gun corvettes out of dV, so careful orbit planning would be required. Wouldn't be much fun to have a billion missile ships and a few decoy launching ships, so I came up with a more aggressive fleet design. Link to pastebin of all the custom content required: pastebin.com/BwVype5kPics of weapons and ships in the spoiler: ---------------- goduranus fleet: ---------------- Ok here's my fleet, totaling 5.33kt and 94.6Mc My tactic is to launch overwhelming number of missile and drones while keeping the main ship away from the fight, I'll probably change this to have more delta V if it comes to PVP, but right now 4.27kms is sufficient for singleplayer and I didn't change it. I usually just send a single cluster missile carrier to provide point-defense saturation while a single gun-drone carrier deploys its formation to go for the kill, this tactic defeats any stock enemy fleets many times over. This is the main ship, notable for having non-gimballed molybdenum RCS thrusters that are very resistant to proximity blasts, while its two of decoy systems ensures that enemy missiles will never score a direct hit. it's weapon systems in the screenshot are 30 second decoy launcher with 30 ammo Medium Frag missile launchers with 400 ammo, 4km/s deltaV Upgraded 9.5Mt Nuclear Devastator missiles with 20 ammo, 6km/s deltaV Upgraded 1.47Mt Nuclear Striker missiles with 400 ammo, 2km/s deltaV Fission powered decoy missile launcher with 30 ammo 40 Cluster Missile carriers that each has a 30mm cannon that has a 20km max range, and contain a total of 1600 mini-missiles 20 drone carriers that each has a 7.54km/s railgun that has a 64km max range, and contain a total of 600 small drones that each has a 30mm cannon Also a 100kw shitty laser set to 250km range, to force enemy missiles into battle from far away. The Cluster missile carrier The gun-drone carrier The gun-drone itself -------------- ross128 fleet: -------------- Alright, large image dump incoming. Missile Support Ship: LCDC: Stiletto Carrier: Minuteman: Cannon Drone: Stiletto Drone: ALL THE MISSILES: ------------------ redparadize fleet: ------------------ So Here is My fleet! Sorry for the long text, I had fun writing it. 2 Katana IB and 2 LongBow I, for a total of 98.3Mc. Total drones: 12x Tashi IVB pocket battleship drone 8x Mercury T1kt tanker drone 20x AMS II Anti Missile drone 40x AMS I Anti Missile drone 20x Arrow I drone dispencer 100x Thor I Gunship 100x Trident D16 MIRV Total missiles in all platform: 2200 Dwarf 2.5kt Here is the katana IB and its playload: Here is the longbow I and its playload: (In the picture it say Dwarf 3kt, but the warhead is in fact 2.5kt Sorry about that) Exemple of opening strategy: The two Katana drop all their playload and its drones split in two fleet of equal number. The two Longbow drop 10 Arrow, 4 merging with each Katana drone fleet, the last two in a separate one. We now have the following fleet, doing their respective maneuver:
Afterward combat tactic: After that, it all depend on the enemy. The scout fleet will likely be countered by enemy drones and missile. It is exactly what I want. Arrows will do last minute course correction of if main enemy fleet try to dodge, then it will drop all its drone and they will divide them self in two group (Strike group one and two). The Arrows, now empty, can still be useful, they will use their remaining fuel to accelerate in front of the strike groups and catch the interceptor first. Basically, they will kamikaze, I want to see what the enemy is sending and possibly waste some of them in the process.
The two strike group will probably intercept the enemy at +15kms. I do not intent on fighting the interceptor, I will disperse my Thor and Trident and advance with one AMS I to drop flare in the ahead. If the enemy have drones, it will most likely destroy few of mine, but at that speed probably not all. If the enemy rely on missile then I am all good. Because of my AMS I, I am basically immune to mass KKV and flak missile. AMS I can also dodge few low yield nuke, but would get wasted by wasted if they have nuke.
I will repeat these attack as long as possible using Arrows from the carrier fleet and battle fleet, All of them aimed at the enemy main fleet. I may or may not decide to fight those engagement, but if the enemy have find it difficult to destroy my drone, I will keep trying to fly trough them. If few of them pass trough, Thor I will shoot out of range, their gun are quite accurate. Trident D 16 will drop their dwarf. To good part is that each of the Trident launch them one by one. They will not destroy each other. Since I have 5 Trident per fleet. I still have volley of 5, often enough, 1 will disable some other, but not vaporize them completely. The disabled Dwarf very often collide with target and go right trough them.
I will try to keep the Tashi IVB and few AMS II for the end. If enemy send stuff agaist it, I will hopefully still be at higher orbit than enemy. Change in inclination will be much less expensive from that position (thanks KSP learned so much!). With the tankers these fleet gain a extra 5km/s, for a total of 15. I will be able to dodge for a while. Hopefully the intensity of the Arrow strike will keep the enemy busy. And when I will feel that I can no more dodge, I will send them in. The real gem of these fleet are the AMS II. It have a flare gun. These flare works for 15s and are projected at 100m/s. Thats mean I will blow up enemy missile 1.5km away from the AMS II, and even further from the Tashi. These fleet are almost immune to all missile. The Tashi them self are kinda low powered battleship. Their armor is good, but not exceptional. But even penetrated they rely on massive redundancy: 9 guns 2 reactors, and 22 tanks. If they get in battle with enemy main fleet, they will do enough damage.
------------------- someusername6 fleet: ------------------- Quantity has a quality of its own. And I really like Shadowrun's rigger archetype. Here's my submission. 4x Rigger Tactic and battle plan: Intercept everything with the drones. The main skill is knowing just how many drones to send to each engagement -- enough to intercept missiles / get close enough to an enemy before getting shot down. All required user-defined modules are defined on the attachment, copied and pasted from UserDesigns.txt, attached. Let me know if I missed any (we really could use a tool to import / export these). Pictures: Let's make a reasonable small gun: Put two of them on a drone, with custom-built reactor, radiators, and propulsion: Add 900 of them in each 25 Mc ship (also with custom reactors and launchers, not shown): Action pictures:
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Post by someusername6 on Oct 24, 2016 0:35:08 GMT
I'd very much like to take everyone's fleet for a spin. The answer might end up being "whichever fleet is being controller by a player will defeat the AI", but that's testable.
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Post by ross128 on Oct 24, 2016 0:54:08 GMT
I'm definitely confident anyone here could beat the AI with any of the fleets, because just about all of them are built around tactics that the AI doesn't know how to use.
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Post by redparadize on Oct 24, 2016 1:05:54 GMT
If I give my armorless ship that carry drone that carry even more drone armed with missiles to AI, AI just sit there and do nothing.
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Post by someusername6 on Oct 31, 2016 4:30:58 GMT
Bringing this thread back to the top.
Can I ask people to post their design files, so I can take each fleet for a spin?
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Post by jakjakman on Oct 31, 2016 17:01:50 GMT
Beta: Indeed. As far as dodging goes, I know High speed drones going around 8kms or more will dodge rounds, because my own drones have difficulties hitting target if the interception is slightly off center. Even with even with high speed coilgun and fast turning turrets. I always mix missile drones with gun drones. That way I always get the 100km intercept and enemy can't both engage missiles and drone at the same time. Thats a even more serious flaw in the current targeting system if you ask me. It make combined saturation attack way too effective. ross128: Here is my missile defence, most missile explode 25 km away form my drone! My new drone have a low energy signature so these do the job. I also have heavier variant, since I don't use laser and coilgun I rarely get to use them.
Flare missiles! I tried those once by attaching the stock 300MW flares to a big missile. However, the flare immediately burst into flame upon leaving my ship. I figured that it was a built in game flaw that the fares always burned right when they left the ship. now I think I didn't set the minimum arming distance like you can do for other payloads. Is that what you did for yours? Do you manually ignite the flares after the missile has traveled some distance from your ship?
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Post by redparadize on Oct 31, 2016 17:30:43 GMT
I had that issue before, on my side it was just that my flare were burning in 15ms instant of 15s. If you are using stock flare its probably not the case. Are you sure you have a remote control on it too ?
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