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Post by qswitched on Jul 12, 2016 1:08:18 GMT
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rgm79
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Post by rgm79 on May 22, 2018 4:06:08 GMT
Here is an image taken by WISE spacecraft by sophysticated IR-sensor with 7 K cryostat: Point under green circle is black asteroid 500 m in length and 150 m in width placed "near" Sun-Earth trojan point - 2010 TK7. And what we can know from this picture? At first we theoretically can spot enemy spaceship with switched off engines at more than 20 million km from telescop. But if we use WISE or similar device with cryostat (to reduce detector's own noize). And only if our object was not in the same pixel with star (see image). Due to this stars data analisis is not a fast process - 2010 TK7 was discovered 8th month after WISE-mission. However in case of war we can not wait at least 8 month - even with modern chemical engines we can fly from Earth to Mars (or back) for a 3-4 month (SpaceX ITS/BFS project). No termal emission from life support system will not help. Asteroid fron example has effective diameter 300 m, albedo 0.1 and emanate ~70 MW. Even closed biological life support system want to have more than 10-20 kW per crewman. And here is SBIRS-GEO satellite. It's purpose is to detect ICBM launches from Earth from GEO. Despite of relatively short distance, it is not small (4.5 tonn) and chip. And consume at least 1 kW of electrycity (according to A2100 bus datashit). You can say "But ICBM started from Earth and screening by atmosphere and Earth own IR". But ICBM quiqly leave atmosphere when accelerate and every planet will have it's own IR-emission, especially inhabitated-one. But most importantly thing is the fact that in vacuum we can (and even must) use long vacuum nozzle to increase engine efficiency. And if we use regenerate or ablative cooling for vacuume nozzle instead of modern radiative cooling we will have cold engine and relatively cold jet instead of torches of engines with atmocpheric nozzles. In other worlds modern SBIRS could not detect burning of 450-tonn trusters (Satan equvalent) with "stealth-type" vacuum nozzles. Of course future SBIRS analogue can detect even cold jets from vacuume nozzle, but with COADE technologues it will be even larger than modern one: it will need cooling system for detector to see IR from "cold" jets and data-transfer system which can work on interplanetary distances. Atomic rockets position about detection in space is very optimistic and far from reality. Of course we can detect satellites around Earth and asteroids in whole Solar system. But only if we have enough time - several month or even years for interplanetary objects.
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Post by Enderminion on May 24, 2018 18:53:01 GMT
that rock doesn't have a Megawatt range heat signature for lifesupport+reacotr, or a Gigawatt scale heat sig for Lasers
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rgm79
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Post by rgm79 on May 25, 2018 2:53:58 GMT
that rock doesn't have a Megawatt range heat signature for lifesupport+reacotr, or a Gigawatt scale heat sig for Lasers But it has ~70 Megawatts of heat gained from Sun and reemmited to space. CELSS consume about 7 kW per crewman and even with COADE 30+ crew we will have less then 1 MW of own heat. Lasers and railguns will simply switched-off in interplanetary coast and stealth move attempt. Or even replaced to convention guns and rockets. And the real problem is that if 2010 7K rock produce own heat we will discover this amazing fact only when land on it. In IR-telescope we see only heat source and can calculated distance to it by triangulation. Even 70 MW of power gained form calculation with assumption that it emmited energy spherically simmetric. And dimentions of rock was also gained with assumption that it can take energy only from Sun and has albedo 0.1.
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Post by Anon1 on May 31, 2018 18:49:52 GMT
Here is an image taken by WISE spacecraft by sophysticated IR-sensor with 7 K cryostat: Point under green circle is black asteroid 500 m in length and 150 m in width placed "near" Sun-Earth trojan point - 2010 TK7. And what we can know from this picture? At first we theoretically can spot enemy spaceship with switched off engines at more than 20 million km from telescop. But if we use WISE or similar device with cryostat (to reduce detector's own noize). And only if our object was not in the same pixel with star (see image). Due to this stars data analisis is not a fast process - 2010 TK7 was discovered 8th month after WISE-mission. However in case of war we can not wait at least 8 month - even with modern chemical engines we can fly from Earth to Mars (or back) for a 3-4 month (SpaceX ITS/BFS project). No termal emission from life support system will not help. Asteroid fron example has effective diameter 300 m, albedo 0.1 and emanate ~70 MW. Even closed biological life support system want to have more than 10-20 kW per crewman. Data anaylsis is a function of available computer processing power. The fact that it took 240 days to discover that asteroid is a function of the computer processing power applied to find it. If you want to find that same asteroid within 3 hours then you need a computer with 1920 times the processing power available to the scientists running the WISE mission. This is actually available today if you have the money to build a big enough supercomputer. There is also the fact that WISE only used a 40 cm wide telescope, and telescope sensitivity (aka the gain of the aperture) is a function of the collecting area of the telescope's aperture. A telescope made with the same technology that has 100 times the area will have 100 times the sensitivity. The question of whether or not stealth is possible is really a question about the resources that faction A has available to use to detect faction B's stealth craft. Just because faction B's craft are stealthy to faction A's sensors does not mean that faction C can't track every single craft that faction B has at multiple AU distances. It takes resources to build a detection system and just because something is possible to be detected does not mean that any particular faction will expend the resources required to detect said object. Hiding a stealth target from North Korea and hiding it from the US military is two very different scenarios. In principle no stealth is possible. In practice, you only get the detection ability that you are willing to pay for.
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Post by Anon1 on May 31, 2018 18:53:42 GMT
Here is an image taken by WISE spacecraft by sophysticated IR-sensor with 7 K cryostat: Point under green circle is black asteroid 500 m in length and 150 m in width placed "near" Sun-Earth trojan point - 2010 TK7. And what we can know from this picture? At first we theoretically can spot enemy spaceship with switched off engines at more than 20 million km from telescop. But if we use WISE or similar device with cryostat (to reduce detector's own noize). And only if our object was not in the same pixel with star (see image). Due to this stars data analisis is not a fast process - 2010 TK7 was discovered 8th month after WISE-mission. However in case of war we can not wait at least 8 month - even with modern chemical engines we can fly from Earth to Mars (or back) for a 3-4 month (SpaceX ITS/BFS project). No termal emission from life support system will not help. Asteroid fron example has effective diameter 300 m, albedo 0.1 and emanate ~70 MW. Even closed biological life support system want to have more than 10-20 kW per crewman." Data anaylsis is a function of available computer processing power. The fact that it took 240 days to discover that asteroid is a function of the computer processing power applied to find it. If you want to find that same asteroid within 3 hours then you need a computer with 1920 times the processing power available to the scientists running the WISE mission. This is actually available today if you have the money to build a big enough supercomputer. There is also the fact that WISE only used a 40 cm wide telescope, and telescope sensitivity (aka the gain of the aperture) is a function of the collecting area of the telescope's aperture. A telescope made with the same technology that has 100 times the area will have 100 times the sensitivity. The question of whether or not stealth is possible is really a question about the resources that faction A has available to use to detect faction B's stealth craft. Just because faction B's craft are stealthy to faction A's sensors does not mean that faction C can't track every single craft that faction B has at multiple AU distances. It takes resources to build a detection system and just because something is possible to be detected does not mean that any particular faction will expend the resources required to detect said object. Hiding a stealth target from North Korea and hiding it from the US military is two very different scenarios. In principle no stealth is possible. In practice, you only get the detection ability that you are willing to pay for.
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Post by lurker on Jun 1, 2018 3:53:48 GMT
Just adding to what Anon 1 said it would depend on the amount of computer processing power there is available that is going to be the determining factor in the amount of time that is going to be spent finding these "stealth" spacecraft(s) and seeing as keeping enemy spacecraft(s) as far from your planet as possible is a vary high priority item there would undoubtedly be a vary large portion of funds that would be spent on computers and other devices that will detect these type of spacecrafts.
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rgm79
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Post by rgm79 on Jun 1, 2018 13:46:33 GMT
Yes we can find heat source in Solar system from raw data (full of stars) faster if we have more cores and memory. But for military purposes simple spoting of heat sources is not enough - necessary to weed out warship from decoys and garbige from civilians like empty fuel tanks. And, as we can see from picture, we have only a few pixels for it. Even 40 cm WISE produce pictures with stars on almoust 50 % of pixels. And with increasing of telescope sensitivity you will increase this noize two. And will produce white noize from stars. Yes if faction have enough resourses to build Dyson sphere - stealth will not be possible inside this sphere. But Atomic Rockets tell us cool stories about 4 hours of celestial shpere scaning by 10cm telescope and 4 hours of data analisys on desctop to find 15 kT ship on ballistic coast. You need this amount of computer processing to detect not stealth ships but simple piece of metal/plastic/etc on heliocentric orbit. Just because we have stars in our universe. To understand where is a spacecraft and where is not you should also improve sensors because of GIGO law. And this is very sad story. For example we need to know shape of heat source. As calculated here Hubble Telescope with its 2.4m mirror will have 105 m spatial resolution on 600 000 km. And this telescope work with visible light - with IR result will be ~1000 m resolution on 600 000 km with 2.4 meters apperture. It means that we can not understand by shape is there 100m COADE Corvete or decoy on even 600 000 km until we build optic telescope with 240 m apperture to have 1 meter resolution. And if we painted our corvete in black you will need 2.4 km apperture to have 1 m resolution on 600 000 km with IR telescope. Good luck. Above was considered case of not using of special stealth technologies - only ship without targeting beacon in ballistic coast. And can we make extra countermeasures? We can. There are two cases of hiding in space: 1. During maneuvers. If we have ship with at least 1 m/s2 of acceleration it will be enough to hide not the fact of maneuver, but velocity vector after it - in war it was not usefull to know where enemy was especially if he move on at least kilometers per second. Decoys will help us to do it. 2. During ballistic coast. Here we should hide somewrehe energy from two sources: Sun, and ship systems (including crew). 2.1 Sun. Just use methamaterial cloack. 2.2 Ship systems and % of sun heat that can cut thrue methamaterial. Usually here should be heat sinks, but better to use the same trick as with sun energy - emmit it into sun nadir (point opposite sun in celestial sphere) and forget about heat sinks time limitation. Space submarine project is finished.
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Post by Anon1 on Jun 4, 2018 8:25:31 GMT
Yes we can find heat source in Solar system from raw data (full of stars) faster if we have more cores and memory. But for military purposes simple spoting of heat sources is not enough - necessary to weed out warship from decoys and garbige from civilians like empty fuel tanks. And, as we can see from picture, we have only a few pixels for it. Even 40 cm WISE produce pictures with stars on almoust 50 % of pixels. And with increasing of telescope sensitivity you will increase this noize two. And will produce white noize from stars. Yes if faction have enough resourses to build Dyson sphere - stealth will not be possible inside this sphere. But Atomic Rockets tell us cool stories about 4 hours of celestial shpere scaning by 10cm telescope and 4 hours of data analisys on desctop to find 15 kT ship on ballistic coast. You need this amount of computer processing to detect not stealth ships but simple piece of metal/plastic/etc on heliocentric orbit. Just because we have stars in our universe. To understand where is a spacecraft and where is not you should also improve sensors because of GIGO law. And this is very sad story. For example we need to know shape of heat source. As calculated here Hubble Telescope with its 2.4m mirror will have 105 m spatial resolution on 600 000 km. And this telescope work with visible light - with IR result will be ~1000 m resolution on 600 000 km with 2.4 meters apperture. It means that we can not understand by shape is there 100m COADE Corvete or decoy on even 600 000 km until we build optic telescope with 240 m apperture to have 1 meter resolution. And if we painted our corvete in black you will need 2.4 km apperture to have 1 m resolution on 600 000 km with IR telescope. Good luck. Above was considered case of not using of special stealth technologies - only ship without targeting beacon in ballistic coast. And can we make extra countermeasures? We can. There are two cases of hiding in space: 1. During maneuvers. If we have ship with at least 1 m/s2 of acceleration it will be enough to hide not the fact of maneuver, but velocity vector after it - in war it was not usefull to know where enemy was especially if he move on at least kilometers per second. Decoys will help us to do it. 2. During ballistic coast. Here we should hide somewrehe energy from two sources: Sun, and ship systems (including crew). 2.1 Sun. Just use methamaterial cloack. 2.2 Ship systems and % of sun heat that can cut thrue methamaterial. Usually here should be heat sinks, but better to use the same trick as with sun energy - emmit it into sun nadir (point opposite sun in celestial sphere) and forget about heat sinks time limitation. Space submarine project is finished. You can increase resolution by just adding another telescope (possibly carried by another ship in your battlegroup). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomical_interferometerYou could, and a space based military should, have an array of these telescopes looking for any hostile spacecraft. Spacecraft could even have sensor drones that would augment their detection abilities. Also, increase sensitivity of a larger aperture by definition means a higher signal to noise ratio for detection. As for white noise, it is a good thing that detecting signals below the average noise floor is an old technology, besides the light coming from distant stars is not going to change significantly and can be filtered out. In fact occultation of the light of distance stars as your ship moves in front of it is all that is needed to detect and track you. Painting your craft black is not going to stop you from being seen with visible light as even Vantablack reflects 0.02 percent of incident visible light. That is a doppler shifted signal that isn't supposed to be there. But as for IR scopes, your heat has to be radiated and will be detected. Once a target is detected, then active scanners using a narrow beam LIDAR pulse can interrogate the target. A 200 nm UV laser fired from a 10 meter wide aperture would have a minimum spot size of 24.4 meters at a distance of 1 million kilometers, which if used in LIDAR mode would correspond to the ability to resolve features at least as small as 24.4 meters. And this LIDAR beam could be orders of magnitude more intense than sunlight. A 1 GW lidar beam could be 1564 times as intense as sunlight at Earth's orbit, and a military protecting a planet could have a lot of them. They also double as planetary defense weapons which is a bonus. Even at 10 million kilometers, a 1 GW lidar scan could be 15.64 times as intense as sunlight and going with a large sensor could increase intensity further, but so could using multiple of these "sensors" to paint a target. Using a set of networked sensors that combined both passive and active detection means would allow a space based military to catalog any threatening objects far out side of weapons range. Active visible range sensors would also double as very nice weapons. If this combination seems strange, then have you heard of the S-400 or the US Navy's "Cooperative Engagement Capability"? This type of networking is what current militaries are already doing. Why would future militaries be dumber?
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rgm79
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Post by rgm79 on Jun 4, 2018 13:52:23 GMT
link If it was so simple with adding another telescope, NASA will made Pluto map without New Horison mission. And for optical interferometer you can not use another spacecraft. from Wiki. It is physically imposible to looking for any hostile spacecraft. Methamaterial cloacked ships and any ships inside comet halo will be undetectable. Not in this case. When you increase telescope sensitivity you also increase number of stars which it see. And all these stars are nature-made decoys for our sensors. Only if you move away from our Solar system millions of asteroids which also have occulations with stars. But 2010 TK7 with only 0.1 albedo is undetectable without WISE. At first, it is simply dont work on such distances. 1 million km is more than 3 light seconds and you should predict target position at least 6,6 seconds after it is detected. And it is seems to be unreal to position 1 GW 10 meter laser precision enough to scan 100 m objects at 1 million km. At second, please read topic. AR's "No stealth in space conceptions" is about detection by passive sensors only on interplanetary distances. If you can detect enemy craft only on 1 million km and with active 1GW LIDAR scaning stealth in space is possible - submarines also can be detected by active sonars. And my methamaterial-cloacked stealthship you simply can not spot by passive sensors until it burn trusters. And in time of acceleration LIDAR usually will scan decoys.
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Post by AtomHeartDragon on Jun 4, 2018 17:46:28 GMT
A few points: - Starfield is anything but white noise. It's a fixed, well known pattern - easy to subtract from data.
- Even without interferometry having multiple telescopes is incredibly useful - you can do parallax, you can interpolate your data to reduce noise and improve resolution, and even in the unlikely event the enemy can piss all over Newton and Kepler and move as they please, they still won't be able to close in on any of the multiple observers without creating apparent movement.
- Capturing on multiple wavelengths also allows filtering out things too hot to be spacecraft (stars), known bodies (I expect any civilization capable enough to duke it out in space to have everything worth noting in their solar system catalogued), things emitting just reflected light plus any heat they receive from the Sun, etc. This will leave precious few objects to scrutinize.
- If anything suspicious happens you can sweep with LIDARs, if anything suspicious happens nearby, you can flash with nukes and look for thermal echoes.
- Data processing is going to look different for military (where budgets are large and time is of the essence) than for astronomers (where time is easily the least important factor and one easiest to cut costs on). Sensors are also going to look different if you already operate whole fleets of interplanetary warships rather than less than ton of electronics packed into a flimsy tincan. You could put several times WISE's worth of sensors and electronics on even the tiniest manned ship you can build in COADE without even making a noticeable dent in payload or delta-v.
- Metamaterials are interesting but they won't cheat thermodynamics.If they do, there are far more interesting things you can do with them than invisibility cloaks
Overall I would expect a few hydrogen steamers here and there, but in most cases stealth, at least in conventional sense - there could still be room for subterfuge, to be non-factor.
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Post by Anon1 on Jun 5, 2018 2:20:28 GMT
link If it was so simple with adding another telescope, NASA will made Pluto map without New Horison mission. And for optical interferometer you can not use another spacecraft. from Wiki. It is physically imposible to looking for any hostile spacecraft. Methamaterial cloacked ships and any ships inside comet halo will be undetectable. Not in this case. When you increase telescope sensitivity you also increase number of stars which it see. And all these stars are nature-made decoys for our sensors. Only if you move away from our Solar system millions of asteroids which also have occulations with stars. But 2010 TK7 with only 0.1 albedo is undetectable without WISE. At first, it is simply dont work on such distances. 1 million km is more than 3 light seconds and you should predict target position at least 6,6 seconds after it is detected. And it is seems to be unreal to position 1 GW 10 meter laser precision enough to scan 100 m objects at 1 million km. At second, please read topic. AR's "No stealth in space conceptions" is about detection by passive sensors only on interplanetary distances. If you can detect enemy craft only on 1 million km and with active 1GW LIDAR scaning stealth in space is possible - submarines also can be detected by active sonars. And my methamaterial-cloacked stealthship you simply can not spot by passive sensors until it burn trusters. And in time of acceleration LIDAR usually will scan decoys. a) NASA's entire budget constitutes rounding error compared to the Department of Defense. b) Astronomers can only wish that they had access to military grade sensors or supercomputers. c) Metamaterials are not 100% effective and therefore there will be a returned signal. d) Metamaterials only work on a very narrow frequency band, so you are going to need a different metamaterial structure for each frequency band that the active sensor is using and this is going to further decrease the overall effectiveness of your so called cloak. e) To even talk about a metamaterial for a visible light frequency (and you will not a lot of different ones as each one will be very narrow band) requires a device produced with nanotechnological precision, which translates as not cheap to cover a spacecraft in. f) Metamaterial cloaking only works for small objects and against a very small frequency band. g) There are these things called lasers, that would allow precise alignment of sensors carried by different ships in a fleet into a single sparsely populated array. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamaterial_cloakingYour broadband metamaterial cloaked 100 m long spacecraft is impossible. You may as well talk about hiding Leprechauns.
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rgm79
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Post by rgm79 on Jun 5, 2018 3:54:55 GMT
White noise is is a random signal having equal intensity at different frequencies. OK they have not equal intensity at different frequencies, bud placement of stars we can consider as random.
Not easy. Each pixel have only limited number of values (usually 0-255) and if this star exceed maximum for example 2 times you can not understand changed something with it or not untill you drop CCD sensitivity. And if for science years of data collection and data analisis and even chanse to heve false-positives is normal for militaries it is completetly unacceptable.
To improve resolution 10 times by interpolation you need to increase number of telescopes 100 times. And building 100 Hubble Telescopes only to see COADE corvette at 600 000 km with 10 meter resolution instead of 100 meter for 1 Hubble does not look like a good idea.
Chelyabinsk meteor move in accordance with Newton and have 20 meters in diameter but was not detected untill fall.
Then it will be enough use UV-lamp to be stealthy. Brilliant plan.
At least most space civilisations will produced garbage in space. And if we have "a little" problems with catalogue of garbage in Ocean why they will not? And space civilisation also will have civilian and eprivate vessels. And if we can not cataloqued all cars in Syria, Iraq, Afganistan and other interesting places why our descendants should can? I know about danger from 1+ km/s civilian vessels and tracers. But at first problem of 9/11 in space has another solution (BTW transponders on planes did not help in our 9/11) and we also con not controll Internet where everyone should have IP.
In 1982 Israel show that this tactic lead to shamefull defeat of one who use it if enemy have decoy drones and know how to use them.
It is an illusion that military have unlimited budget. And they must use more or less mass-produced equepment while scientists can use unic.
Quantum effectivnes of CCD can not be high than 100 %, temperature of device can not be less then 0 K and modern scientific equpment already near this limitations. CPU is also near quantum limitations now. Then we can expect mass-produced WISEs for military purposes in rocket-punk future, but not something significantly better.
Methamaterials allow as to reflect incoming sun radiation in direction where it will be jammed by sun - nadir. It almoust all that we need to be stealthy during ballistic coast. When we hide own heat and fraction of sun energy which cloack absorb into heat sink or also emmit it into sun nadir - we will be invisible untill someone build Dyson Sphere of sensors and computers. And in time of acceleration we will be visible, but it is enough to hide final velocity vector - not the fact of acceleration.
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rgm79
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Post by rgm79 on Jun 5, 2018 4:59:54 GMT
And NASA has not thousands of planes, helicopters, ground vessels, hundreds of ships and more than 1 million of military personel.
Please google top 500 and don't post this crap about "military-grade supercomputers". Real situation is completely oposite.You have problmes with understanding words "chalenges" and "surrounding air" in your qoutes from wiki?
But there is no one optical interferometer based on separated spacecrafts.
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Post by AtomHeartDragon on Jun 5, 2018 18:51:36 GMT
White noise is is a random signal having equal intensity at different frequencies. OK they have not equal intensity at different frequencies, bud placement of stars we can consider as random. It doesn't matter. The problem with white noise is that it's unpredictable. It has maximum possible entropy. Meanwhile, after initial observation, starfield's entropy is firmly stuck affectively at zero - that's polar opposite of white noise and it holds whether the stars are arranged randomly, form a highly ordered lattice of smiley faces, or spell out full text of Principia Discordia mapped out on celestial sphere using inverse Mercator projection. It doesn't matter - once you have observed it once it's not going to change noticeably. You can have more pixels, you can have more values per pixel, you can have more instruments or more observations one after another. And if you're a military occasional false positives are perfectly ok (unless you predicate starting apocalypse on them, that is), it's false negatives you should worry about. You can also increase number of observations. Or have your 100 Hubbles looking in 100 directions simultaneously. Seriously, the cost of a Hubble telescope would likely not even register on the scale of even the most modest CoADE ship. By a surface bound civilization that has it's collective head stuck in the mud most of the time. Slow. Clap. Will you also match the rest of your power-frequency curve to that and somehow manage to do so without having to output hideous amounts of energy (and heat) or drawing attention by being completely uncharted star with parallax placing it suspiciously inside Solar System? The point here isn't to propose single panaceum technique that defeats all stealth - it's to notice that there are so many ways of performing observations and so many ways to mangle the resulting data that not sticking out like a sore thumb one way or another becomes nothing short of miracle. Pretty much any Earth environment is awfully cluttered and unpredictable compared to our solar system. If you're postulating space cluttered with too many privately owned craft and assorted garbage to keep track of, that's fine, but two points: - That's more likely to be relevant in nominal peace time conditions and actually could make a more interesting backdrop than full out space conflict, however...
- It's going to require quite a bit more advanced technology than COADE - with transfers ranging from months to years you're not going to have untraceable thicket of civilian space traffic.
- You still need to find some way to deal with mundane facts of life - such as every single of those privately owned craft being a potential WMD capable of causing an extinction grade event.
Mass produced also means optimized for reduced cost, with initial flaws ironed out. And with some things - including sensors - quantity is a quality of its own. You can always make bigger or more. And in all epochs people could cook up a well reasoned explanation why their current tech was the pinnacle of what could possibly be made. So far all have been wrong. - Your metamaterial won't be 100% effective and masking your waste heat will inevitably involve some sort of open cooling. Either way you end up with highly specialized hydrogen steamer of some sort. This can be useful but is likely to remain rare and highly situational.
- Sunlight is close to black body so broadband
- In case it comes to blows everyone seeing everything is going to be a reasonable assumption most of the time and most of the remaining time stealth will amount to a mole putting plausibly deniable bug in guidance package causing malfunction wiping out some colony in a hypervelocity collision, rather than inivisible hydrogen steamers.
- In peacetime this kind of stealth will be all there is (apart from economical and information weapons), with added detail that you'll need to wait until after the event AND light lag before sending your sincerest condolences.
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