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Post by mikeck on Sept 30, 2016 17:20:41 GMT
Not trying to duplicate the thread but since I found support for my questions about whether it's possible to shape nuclear charges to direct more energy at the target. The site below discusses experiments with nuclear shaped charges and confirmed that it works. There are two options, creating a plasma jet or using a plate to create shrapnel. Langue below sums it up. I'm placing it here so hopefully the developer could review and consider it. If this tech is mature, it would Certainly be used in space since so much of the nuclear explosion is wasted...I would think. "Velocities achievable with thermonuclear shaped charges are impressive. Unlike molten jets produced by conventional shaped charges, which are limited to about 10 kilometers per second (about four times the velocities of the gases resulting from chemical explosions), thermonuclear shaped charges can in principle propel matter more than two orders of magnitude faster. Since fusion temperatures reach 100 million K, the detonation front of a thermonuclear explosive travels at speeds in excess of 1,000 kilometers per second. Using a convergent conical thermonuclear bum-wave with a suitable liner, one could theoretically create a jet traveling at 10,000 kilometers per second, or 3 percent of the speed of light.‡ Up to 5 percent of the energy of a small nuclear device reportedly can be converted into kinetic energy of a plate, presumably by employing some combination of explosive wave-shaping and "gun-barrel" design, and produce velocities of 100 kilometers per second and beam angles of 10-3 radians*. (The Chamita test of 17 August 1985, reportedly accelerated a 1-kilogram tungsten/molybdenum plate to 70 kilometers per second.† ) If one chooses to power 10 beams by a single explosion, engaging targets at a range of 2,000 kilometers with a kill energy of 40 kilojoules per pellet (one pellet per square meter), then such a device would require an 8-kiloton explosive and could tolerate random accelerations in the target, such as a maneuvering RV or satellite, of up to 0.5 g (5 m/s2).‡ Here is a comment on the testing. The weapon is called the "casaba howitzer": An SDI nuclear weapons study, Project Prometheus, experimentally tested Casaba Howitzer weapons using plastic propellants. It achieved 10% efficiency. A Princeton University study from 1990 on third-generation nuclear weapons cited 5% instead, but for fusion devices with ten times better beam focus. www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacegunconvent.php#id--Nukes_In_Space--Nuclear_Shaped_Charges
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Post by Crazy Tom on Oct 1, 2016 17:23:32 GMT
The long and short of it is that Shaped Charges and Project Orion were just short of having enough information to be fully modeled in game.
See here for what the dev has to say:
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Post by mikeck on Oct 2, 2016 6:19:59 GMT
Thanks for finding that and posting. Although my request was utilization as a warhead directing the plasma as opposed to Orion which is a drive, the science is the same. Just not enough evidence I guess. From the works above, it was my understanding that this had been tested at some level and was feasible; sadly, I don't know enough about the science to do more than read other people's interpretations of the experiment.
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Kahl'Zun
New Member
King of all cardboard
Posts: 19
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Post by Kahl'Zun on Oct 8, 2016 14:11:38 GMT
I have seen a thread where someone uses a nuke to launch a projectile at an enemy craft, which is broadly similar in principle
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Post by geraldmonroe on Oct 10, 2016 5:57:09 GMT
What even vaguely makes this possible? What the dev is saying, and I also have trouble with grasping, is what allows a small amount of matter to reflect as much as 5% of the energy of a nuclear blast in a specific direction? 5% of multiple megatons is a lot of energy. The gas reflecting it ought to be so energetic it flies away and can't reflect any more energy.
If each fission or fusion produces products that fly off in some random direction, on average that direction will be omnidirectional. Ergo, you have to have something that reflects the blast, and the dev here is saying it doesn't make any sense that a few kilograms of bomb casing can do that.
Now, there may be other things at work here. Expanding gas can't go any faster than the speed of light, so it might still be "present" and able to reflect energy as the blast happens. If there's more reflective gas on one side of an explosion than another, maybe that's what is shaping it. And maybe fission/fusion isn't omnidirectional but the velocity vector of the products is related to the incident velocity of the neutrons or radiation causing the fission/fusion. Might be some detail like that known to atomic weapon designers...
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Post by mikeck on Oct 11, 2016 1:18:17 GMT
This article explains it. It is real and has been tested. Since the 1960's scientists have known how to concentrate a nuclear blast in a directed charge....it's not some made up fiction. toughsf.blogspot.com/2016/06/the-nuclear-spear-casaba-howitzer.html?m=1Here is a discussion on use of directed charges as propulsion(Orion drive). To weaponize, you would need to focus more. That is accomplished by thinning the tungsten plate.[ "A nuclear shaped charge, which became the Orion pulse units, worked in three steps. -The nuclear device detonated, producing 80% of its energy as X-rays, released in all directions. They are blocked by the non-fissionable uranium, except for a hole on top. -The channel filler (Beryllium Oxide) absorbs the x-rays coming through the hole, and re-radiates them as heat (infrared). It is the most important part of the design. -The tungsten propellant absorbs the infrared emissions and vaporizes, becoming a fast travelling stream of plasma headed towards the Orion's pusher plate. The tungsten is plate-shaped so that the plasma produced expands into a thin column. In effect, the tungsten plasma becomes the Orion's propellant. Exhaust velocities of up to 120km/s have been proposed for the original Orion designs. "The original nuclear shaped charge design called for the use of a tungsten plate. The particles that resulted from the detonation of a pulse unit would fit inside a cone with a spread of 22.5°. The particles would be relatively slow (between 10 and 100km/s depending on thrust requirements) and rather cool (14000°C in transit, 67000°C after hitting the plate). As noted before, using lighter elements, such as plastics or even hydrogen, in a thick and narrow instead of wide and flat shape, you can achieve a very narrow cone and very high particle velocities. A Science & Global Security report from 1990 used polystyrene as the propellant material to produce a particle beam with a spread of 5.7° and a velocity of 1000km/s." it is possible to reduce the beam angle to 0.006 degrees in width, as reported by the third-generation nuclear weapons study. 0.057 degrees has been experimentally achieved by project Prometheus. The trade-off is much lower efficiency than propulsive units (5-10% vs 80-85%). The theoretical maximal performance of a thermonuclear device is 25TJ/kg. Modern weapons are able to achieve 2.5TJ/kg, but this figure is for large weapons that have better scaling. Smaller warheads such as those tested for project Prometheus are likely to be in the kiloton range, and mass about 100kg. Better understanding of fission ignition has reduced the nuclear material requirement down to a kilogram or less. results reveal that the Casaba Howitzer is an extremely destructive weapon, with the larger models able to strike at distances usually reserved for lasers. Even a small Casaba Howitzer is effective at up to 2000km, using technology tested in the 80s. Larger, more modern devices can strike at distances where light lag becomes a concern. Futuristic devices will still be limited to particle velocities of about 10000km/s, meaning that time to target becomes problematic.
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Post by mikeck on Oct 11, 2016 1:47:46 GMT
In the above post there is a 1990 study mentioned. This is it below with a statement by the then US Energy Secretary on why the U.S. Is pursuing nuclear directed energy extremal-mechanics.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Fenstermacher.pdfFrom the article: "velocities of 100 kilometers per second can be achieved. The Chamita test of 17 August 1985, reportedly accelerated a I-kilogram tungsten/molybdenum plate to 70 kilometers per second. If one chooses to power 10 beams by a single explosion, engaging targets at a range of 2,000 kilometers with a kill energy of 40 kilojoules per pellet (one pellet per square meter), then such a device would require an 8-kiloton explosive and could tolerate random accelerations in the targets up to ,5g"
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Post by geraldmonroe on Oct 13, 2016 12:59:21 GMT
Ok. So the nuclear explosion isn't being shaped. Just the stuff propelled by it is installed only on a particular face of the warhead and that face is pointed at the target.
So most of the energy of the blast is wasted, and the bomb core mass is wasted, but the propellant is accelerated to high enough velocity to make up for this if the bomb is energetic and efficient enough.
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Post by mikeck on Oct 13, 2016 18:50:12 GMT
I'm not sure it's that simple. The whole point of the project was to increase the amount of energy from a nuclear explosion onto the shock pad at the back of the ship...simply changing its form wouldn't help. There is some direction. A large percentage in fact:
"In a propulsion pulse unit, it is not known how efficiently a nuclear shaped charge is able to heat the propellant. Most sources cite a 85% of the device's energy being sent in the desired direction. It is unknown also whether this is before or after some of the propellant is accelerated in the wrong direction..."
but either way, instead of an expanding sphere of gas and energy, you get a concentrated stream of plasma directed at a target (or multiple targets if you have multiple openings) at relativistic speeds. That would create far more damage than just a spherical burst.
Even if it did not redirect explosive force, the set up with the plate has an effect. Without, you may have a cone of energy about 15% of the total explosion. A ship down range would only get a portion of this cone. By shaping the plate properly, you can make that a thin stream of plasma of which 100% would strike that ship.
So even if only a small part of the energy of the explosion is "used"...that small part emerges a powerful plasma stream that can be aimed and travels at extremely high speed
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Post by mikeck on Oct 14, 2016 18:48:33 GMT
I'm not sure it's that simple. The whole point of the project was to increase the amount of energy from a nuclear explosion onto the shock pad at the back of the ship...simply changing its form wouldn't help. There is some direction. A large percentage in fact: "In a propulsion pulse unit, it is not known how efficiently a nuclear shaped charge is able to heat the propellant. Most sources cite a 85% of the device's energy being sent in the desired direction. It is unknown also whether this is before or after some of the propellant is accelerated in the wrong direction..." but either way, instead of an expanding sphere of gas and energy, you get a concentrated stream of plasma directed at a target (or multiple targets if you have multiple openings) at relativistic speeds. That would create far more damage than just a spherical burst. Even if it did not redirect explosive force, the set up with the plate has an effect. Without, you may have a cone of energy about 15% of the total explosion. A ship down range would only get a portion of this cone. By shaping the plate properly, you can make that a thin stream of plasma of which 100% would strike that ship. So even if only a small part of the energy of the explosion is "used"...that small part emerges a powerful plasma stream that can be aimed and travels at extremely high speed Edit: I did read that the Casaba type plasma weapon is diffenrent from a shaped charge in asmuchas the Casaba uses material to direct energy and the latter uses the charge of the explosive itself. Apparently that is possible as well. No source so take it as you will: "Both conventional and thermonuclear shaped charges tailor an explosive burn-wave using a detonation front that releases energy along a prescribed path. Both can produce jets of molten metal having velocities greatly in excess of the detonation velocity. "For thermonuclear fuels such as deuterium plus tritium, the burn-wave can be directed by placing hollow bubbles or inert solids in the path of the detonation front in order to alter its velocity. Of course, ignition of a thermonuclear burn in a warhead requires a fission trigger to achieve the necessary compression and temperature... but even with such a (nondirected) trigger, the overall directivity of a thermonuclear shaped charge can still be significant... Using a convergent conical thermonuclear burn-wave with a suitable liner, one could theoretically create a jet traveling at 10,000 kilometers per second, or 3 percent of the speed of light."[Fe]
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Post by ScottS on Jul 18, 2017 11:21:32 GMT
Could such a shaped explosion be detonated near an incoming comet/meteor as not to destroy the object but to change its velocity enough to miss a collision with earth?
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Post by Enderminion on Jul 18, 2017 11:55:05 GMT
Could such a shaped explosion be detonated near an incoming comet/meteor as not to destroy the object but to change its velocity enough to miss a collision with earth? yes, but why a normal nuke would work just as well
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Post by matterbeam on Jul 19, 2017 14:08:15 GMT
Hi. While I disagree with qswitched's analysis of nuclear shaped charges and their effectiveness, I have to admit that not enough of the designs have been classified to be able to implement them into the game with the same standard of realism as other technologies.
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Post by Amistad on Oct 2, 2018 0:58:39 GMT
A year later and I'm still down for Orion drives and Casaba howitzers. I admit, though, that it'd radically change the game, as NTRs and whatnot would be made practically obsolete in most cases.
A package deal including Orion Drives, nuclear shaped charge weapons, and perhaps bomb-pumped lasers (which fit in nicely with nuclear propulsion) would be a cool idea for a DLC. If you're feeling adventuruous, you could call it the "nuke update" or somesuch and also add multistage teller-type nuclear bombs, new types of reactors (IE salt water, which I think isn't included in base game), and enhanced radiation weapons/cobalt bombs/neutron bombs.
I'd buy that in a heartbeat.
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Post by Pttg on Oct 2, 2018 6:25:50 GMT
Selling it as DLC also opens it up to be more speculative. People who want sourced and precise stuff can stick to the base game. People who buy a DLC are saying they're willing to use best-guess stats.
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