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Post by concretedonkey on Mar 14, 2017 8:41:48 GMT
If this is your position then we have nothing to discuss . I'm out.
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Post by The Astronomer on Mar 14, 2017 9:03:31 GMT
If this is your position then we have nothing to discuss :). I'm out. :(
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Post by dragonkid11 on Mar 14, 2017 9:23:01 GMT
A small nation that uses a Qship is a dead nation. A big nation that uses a Qship is a nation at war with the rest of the system. The Islamic state still exists. Terror/gorilla tactics are a thing. And they are currently receiving extreme level of butthurt from everyone in ME that they are barely on the front page of news. Your point?
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Post by darthroach on Mar 14, 2017 9:25:15 GMT
The Islamic state still exists. That is a terrible example because it has nothing to do with military matters and everything to do with politics. Which I would rather not see on this forum, ever. I hope everybody can agree to that. Even so they are getting steamrollered at the moment.
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Post by newageofpower on Mar 14, 2017 10:50:58 GMT
The Islamic state still exists. Terror/gorilla tactics are a thing. If the Islamic state were an actual immediate existential threat, they'd have been nuked off the face of the planet already. Q-ships would never admit their true flag, and thus be somewhat of a semi-rogue actor.
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Post by thorneel on Mar 14, 2017 11:07:44 GMT
Shit guys you are writing faster than I can respond and I really need to work . Thing is that you are all affected by what I would call "large force" way of thinking and I'm much more inclined to like small nations that defy the forces of the day and do everything possible to protect themselves . Both points of view have their issues. You think investing large amounts of money in military makes your stomping of everybody else somehow more moral and right. I on the other hand like simple cheap solutions that give even small nations ways to defend themselves. We may never agree. A small nation that uses a Qship is a dead nation. A big nation that uses a Qship is a nation at war with the rest of the system. The trick is to erase evidences leading to you in the first place. Oh, your Jovian terminal has been nuked by a launcher on board a Liberty Exchange hauler? That's too bad, Mr Ambassador. Probably those Iroquois Resurgence thugs. Who, us? My, we would never do such a thing! That would be terrorism! Of course you have no evidence against us, as we know our job are in no way implicated in this horrendous act! Depending on the exact details of international politics at the time, you can pull it off even if everyone knows that it was you, as long as they can't prove it conclusively.
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Post by Enderminion on Mar 14, 2017 11:13:21 GMT
if you don't tell anyone you have A Q-ship, then wait till after the enemy has dropped the bomb, then you ensure MAD. also don't give it your own flag, thats asking for trouble
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Post by subunit on Mar 14, 2017 15:00:21 GMT
Q-ships were historically employed for defensive purposes against commerce raiding against powers that were already engaged in unrestricted warfare against the Q-ship employers. You could easily imagine a similar use in the CoaDE universe that wouldn't provoke any particular escalation beyond the already-existing unrestricted warfare.
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Post by Enderminion on Mar 14, 2017 15:13:28 GMT
barrage nuclear strikes, nuclear carpet bombing, Chemical and biological warfare, killing all enemy people, a few q-ships will fit right in
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Post by ross128 on Mar 14, 2017 15:55:04 GMT
The reason using Q-ships offensively is considered "dishonorable", for lack of a better term, is similar to the reason why you're not supposed to dress soldiers in civilian clothes or use a hospital as a bunker.
If you see an enemy warship, soldier, or bunker, you know it's an enemy and you can shoot it. If you fail to defeat it and it proceeds to kill a bunch of your men, well, that's war.
But if the enemy is holed up in a hospital what are you supposed to do, level every hospital in the area? If they're dressing as civilians, how are you supposed to avoid civilian casualties? These kinds of tactics are atrocities waiting to happen. We avoid doing them because we would like to think that neither side wants their hospitals bombed, or their civilians exterminated, so we agree not to create situations that would force our hands on these matters.
The reason defensive Q-ships get a pass is because they are expected to only engage if the enemy is attempting to attack civilian ships anyway. Since in that situation the ships were already a target, well, fighting back is only fair. That some of the ships are better at fighting back than you would expect is just too bad, should have thought about that before attacking civilian ships.
That's the deal after all: don't attack civilian ships, don't use Q-ships. Breaking one side of that deal removes any reason to uphold the other side. That's how most laws of war are "enforced", atrocity invites atrocity. It's better not to be the one that started it.
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Post by darthroach on Mar 14, 2017 15:55:30 GMT
Q-ships were historically employed for defensive purposes against commerce raiding against powers that were already engaged in unrestricted warfare against the Q-ship employers. You could easily imagine a similar use in the CoaDE universe that wouldn't provoke any particular escalation beyond the already-existing unrestricted warfare. By now the Qship tangent has taken us off topic, I think. The reason they were brought up to begin with was to debate whether they'd make a counter to surface defenses or not.
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Post by Enderminion on Mar 14, 2017 17:22:05 GMT
The reason using Q-ships offensively is considered "dishonorable", for lack of a better term, is similar to the reason why you're not supposed to dress soldiers in civilian clothes or use a hospital as a bunker. If you see an enemy warship, soldier, or bunker, you know it's an enemy and you can shoot it. If you fail to defeat it and it proceeds to kill a bunch of your men, well, that's war. But if the enemy is holed up in a hospital what are you supposed to do, level every hospital in the area? If they're dressing as civilians, how are you supposed to avoid civilian casualties? These kinds of tactics are atrocities waiting to happen. We avoid doing them because we would like to think that neither side wants their hospitals bombed, or their civilians exterminated, so we agree not to create situations that would force our hands on these matters. The reason defensive Q-ships get a pass is because they are expected to only engage if the enemy is attempting to attack civilian ships anyway. Since in that situation the ships were already a target, well, fighting back is only fair. That some of the ships are better at fighting back than you would expect is just too bad, should have thought about that before attacking civilian ships. That's the deal after all: don't attack civilian ships, don't use Q-ships. Breaking one side of that deal removes any reason to uphold the other side. That's how most laws of war are "enforced", atrocity invites atrocity. It's better not to be the one that started it. total war is practiced in CDE anyway, its not like your flagging q-ships with your own flag and nobody knows any better till it starts shooting, I see q-ships as a way to ensure MAD
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Post by underwhelmed on Mar 15, 2017 14:40:03 GMT
if you don't tell anyone you have A Q-ship, then wait till after the enemy has dropped the bomb, then you ensure MAD. also don't give it your own flag, thats asking for trouble You realize deterrence only works when the adversary knows about it, right?
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Post by Enderminion on Mar 15, 2017 15:48:54 GMT
underwhelmed you tell the enemy you can MAD but you don't tell then how
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Post by The Astronomer on Mar 15, 2017 15:50:47 GMT
What is MAD
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