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Post by kuriosly on Mar 14, 2017 5:39:58 GMT
The best way of getting yourself embargoed by everyone else ever invented. And a strategic bombardment with nukes from a proper warship is any less immoral, because you are waving your proud flag around, do you really think all those dead people will care? Q-ships are a viable alternative and anyway this is a deterrent weapon so the shit has either already hit the fan and many of the crew's friends and family are already dead, or as a first strike weapon leaves you open to the exactly reciprocal response from the other side. In both cases an embargo is the least of your problems. Pretty sure nukes aren't a deterrent here. They kinda are thrown around like candy. Similar to large bombs used in airstrikes today.
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Post by concretedonkey on Mar 14, 2017 6:48:55 GMT
And a strategic bombardment with nukes from a proper warship is any less immoral, because you are waving your proud flag around, do you really think all those dead people will care? Q-ships are a viable alternative and anyway this is a deterrent weapon so the shit has either already hit the fan and many of the crew's friends and family are already dead, or as a first strike weapon leaves you open to the exactly reciprocal response from the other side. In both cases an embargo is the least of your problems. Pretty sure nukes aren't a deterrent here. They kinda are thrown around like candy. Similar to large bombs used in airstrikes today. I think it depends on the target. If we are firing on a static installation especially on a planet it sure is a deterrent. You don't want your stations and asteroids that you live on being nuked. On the other hand you are right in open space you might be just throwing them around like confetti .
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Post by dragonkid11 on Mar 14, 2017 7:01:32 GMT
The problem with comparing Q ship with nuke carrying capital ship is that people know that capital warship might have nuclear missile that was honestly one helluva lot less effective in space than on a planet, so nobody cares much.
Where with Q ship, it's like strapping hidden guns in a school bus and hope nobody notices that the children onboard are either mannequin or hostage.
Since this is Children of Dead Earth and not modern Earth, you will get retaliation in the form of total annihilation if you decided to make it clear that your civilian vessel has weapons on them.
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Post by concretedonkey on Mar 14, 2017 7:23:19 GMT
We can debate the morality of the issue at hand to death and never reach an understanding. For me it doesn't matter if you are firing from a Q ship or a warship what matters is the target. If its a civilian installation its a no go if its a military installation its ok. In this case we are discussing if a large static installation is not making all warships obsolete. I don't think so since the said static installation can be hit first in a variety of ways. The deterrent part is a bonus since it gives you the ability to strike back for a minimal price in case shit hits the fan. In that regard its the much cheaper and practical equivalent of the hypothetical hydrogen steamer that was discussed. I'm unsure of if it was possible technically, but even if it was, I don't like it, its a one pony show with a huge price.
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Post by bigbombr on Mar 14, 2017 7:31:18 GMT
You should consider the political fallout of Q-ships. If you use Q-ships, all of your civilian ships will be considered Q-ships, even by 'neutral' parties not willing to take the risk of possibly having a Q-ship near a major population or production center. Essentially, using Q-ships would politically and economically isolate your faction. The use of Q-ships might actually be a tipping point causing neutral factions joining your opposition, causing you to get curb stomped economically and militarily by the rest of the solar system. Also expect public outcry among your own population due to the morality and the repercussions.
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Post by The Astronomer on Mar 14, 2017 7:36:16 GMT
You should consider the political fallout of Q-ships. If you use Q-ships, all of your civilian ships will be considered Q-ships, even by 'neutral' parties not willing to take the risk of possibly having a Q-ship near a major population or production center. Essentially, using Q-ships would politically and economically isolate your faction. The use of Q-ships might actually be a tipping point causing neutral factions joining your opposition, causing you to get curb stomped economically and militarily by the rest of the solar system. Also expect public outcry among your own population due to the morality and the repercussions. Simply, I'd expect only rogue factions or solo fighters to use Q-ships.
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Post by bigbombr on Mar 14, 2017 7:46:19 GMT
You should consider the political fallout of Q-ships. If you use Q-ships, all of your civilian ships will be considered Q-ships, even by 'neutral' parties not willing to take the risk of possibly having a Q-ship near a major population or production center. Essentially, using Q-ships would politically and economically isolate your faction. The use of Q-ships might actually be a tipping point causing neutral factions joining your opposition, causing you to get curb stomped economically and militarily by the rest of the solar system. Also expect public outcry among your own population due to the morality and the repercussions. Simply, I'd expect only rogue factions or solo fighters to use Q-ships. Then they would get annihilated, and the system would move on.
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Post by concretedonkey on Mar 14, 2017 7:46:38 GMT
This is certainly a possibility but I would argue that in both cases that we discussed it doesn't matter. As I already said if its a retaliatory strike your people will not care since they will be dead , will have dead relatives and will be justifiably enraged how your enemy , likely a larger force , used their advantage to strike you. And if its the other way around - you are the one with more budget and you are considering this large installation to make all ships obsolete, than you can't ignore the possibility that this installation will be hit first by a sneak attack, be it a q ship or something else. So you will likely invest on smaller static defenses backed up by warships and avoid putting all your eggs in one basket.
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Post by darthroach on Mar 14, 2017 7:48:39 GMT
You should consider the political fallout of Q-ships. If you use Q-ships, all of your civilian ships will be considered Q-ships, even by 'neutral' parties not willing to take the risk of possibly having a Q-ship near a major population or production center. Essentially, using Q-ships would politically and economically isolate your faction. The use of Q-ships might actually be a tipping point causing neutral factions joining your opposition, causing you to get curb stomped economically and militarily by the rest of the solar system. Also expect public outcry among your own population due to the morality and the repercussions. Exactly this. The argument against Qships was never about morality - it's a stupid strategic decision for as long as any neutral factions exist. By the time you could use Q ships without losing more than you gain (aka when you are fighting everyone in a total war), they won't work anymore. People aren't going to give you the benefit of the doubt when their entire nation is only a bulkhead away from the hard vacuum of space.
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Post by bigbombr on Mar 14, 2017 7:49:14 GMT
The thing is, unless the Q-ship is loaded with cassaba howitzers, it's weaponry won't have the range to penetrate the forbidden zone around such facilities. Unauthorized craft near such installations would be considered hostile unless proven otherwise and will be blown up by whatever defenses they have.
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Post by concretedonkey on Mar 14, 2017 7:57:55 GMT
Shit guys you are writing faster than I can respond and I really need to work . Thing is that you are all affected by what I would call "large force" way of thinking and I'm much more inclined to like small nations that defy the forces of the day and do everything possible to protect themselves . Both points of view have their issues. You think investing large amounts of money in military makes your stomping of everybody else somehow more moral and right. I on the other hand like simple cheap solutions that give even small nations ways to defend themselves. We may never agree.
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Post by kuriosly on Mar 14, 2017 8:24:18 GMT
Shit guys you are writing faster than I can respond and I really need to work . Thing is that you are all affected by what I would call "large force" way of thinking and I'm much more inclined to like small nations that defy the forces of the day and do everything possible to protect themselves . Both points of view have their issues. You think investing large amounts of money in military makes your stomping of everybody else somehow more moral and right. I on the other hand like simple cheap solutions that give even small nations ways to defend themselves. We may never agree. And when war starts, there is no moral position. Civilians are as much as targets as anyone else. See why the US entered both WW1 and WW2
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Post by darthroach on Mar 14, 2017 8:25:04 GMT
Shit guys you are writing faster than I can respond and I really need to work . Thing is that you are all affected by what I would call "large force" way of thinking and I'm much more inclined to like small nations that defy the forces of the day and do everything possible to protect themselves . Both points of view have their issues. You think investing large amounts of money in military makes your stomping of everybody else somehow more moral and right. I on the other hand like simple cheap solutions that give even small nations ways to defend themselves. We may never agree. A small nation that uses a Qship is a dead nation. A big nation that uses a Qship is a nation at war with the rest of the system.
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Post by kuriosly on Mar 14, 2017 8:26:16 GMT
Shit guys you are writing faster than I can respond and I really need to work . Thing is that you are all affected by what I would call "large force" way of thinking and I'm much more inclined to like small nations that defy the forces of the day and do everything possible to protect themselves . Both points of view have their issues. You think investing large amounts of money in military makes your stomping of everybody else somehow more moral and right. I on the other hand like simple cheap solutions that give even small nations ways to defend themselves. We may never agree. A small nation that uses a Qship is a dead nation. A big nation that uses a Qship is a nation at war with the rest of the system. The Islamic state still exists. Terror/gorilla tactics are a thing.
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Post by The Astronomer on Mar 14, 2017 8:30:52 GMT
Shit guys you are writing faster than I can respond and I really need to work . Thing is that you are all affected by what I would call "large force" way of thinking and I'm much more inclined to like small nations that defy the forces of the day and do everything possible to protect themselves . Both points of view have their issues. You think investing large amounts of money in military makes your stomping of everybody else somehow more moral and right. I on the other hand like simple cheap solutions that give even small nations ways to defend themselves. We may never agree. A small nation that uses a Qship is a dead nation. A big nation that uses a Qship is a nation at war with the rest of the system. And a rogue who uses a Q-ship is a damn ass who'll got nuke'd.
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