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Post by Durandal on Jul 5, 2017 15:38:53 GMT
I have a project I'm mulling over that may work. The rentry conditions (heat and thermal ablation) of MIRV warheads is the same ballpark as a LaserStar's killzone right? (Blast launchers are fun)
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Post by Durandal on Jul 8, 2017 16:42:54 GMT
So it took a few days, but I've built a missile system that can reliably mission kill and usually hard kill minimalist laserstars of various configurations.* It is a bit finicky and I'm certain that others could optimize it further, but my objective was to use standardized components from my existing missile fleets to build a missile that can reliably kill a laserstar at 1Mm range. This missile system has been tested around the asteroid Herculina and in the gravity wells of Luna and Venus. Using the majority of the dV from the first stage, the weapon gets around 14 km/s of relative velocity to the target. The blast launcher boosts the payload a further 5km/s (actually a bit higher, the launcher goal was 5km/s and the name was kept the same). In total, an intercept of around 18-20 km/s is attainable for the Kill Vehicles. The Hypervelocity Boost Missile is essentially a stripped down version of my standardized cruise missile with a large blast launcher and drop tanks. The launcher fires a highly modified micromissile with an engagement range set to just outside of 1Mm. A bit cheesy, but it ensures that the missile can engage outside of the standard engagement range of the laser. The boost vehicle is simply an unarmored first stage. To ensure a hit on the enemy it requires a perpendicular velocity of at least<5mm. I've managed to get intercepts with perpendicular velocities within the nanometer range with patience. The Kill Vehicle is the payload. It carries two 1kg osmium frag warheads intended to create a duel-cone fragmentation pattern. One wide angle cone designed to hit radiators, and one narrow cone designed to core the target ship. My first iterations used nuclear warheads, but with payloads of +1kt warheads the KV wasn't able to maneuver on target and it made the cross section far to wide. The frag warheads are set to arm at 100km, but unfortunately the maximum hard range is limited to 10km. They are still effective though. It is a fairly expensive weapon system. My test ship carries two silos of 10 missiles each, and costs more than than a 5Mc 1GW laser star. Test volleys used all 10 missiles on a single target, with usually half the Kill Vehicles drifting off target due to incidental laser hits. No tests were done against ships with decoy flares, and all tests were conducted against single laserstars. I don't imagine it would be effective against a constellation of laser drones. *Assuming a laserstar that uses pure MPD propulsion and minimal armor. Tests were done against 100Mw, 150Mw, and 1Gw equipped laser stars. Tests against ships that are able to maneuver using resistojets or NTRs are unsuccessful. Code: Hypervelocity Boost Missile (Project Starkiller) ExplosiveModule 1 kg B KV Flak Warhead, 100km
UsesCustomName true
Length_m 0.08
ExplosiveMass_kg 0.0001
ExplosiveComposition Octogen
ShrapnelMass_kg 1
ShrapnelComposition Osmium
Detonator
HardRange_km 10
ActivationRange_km 100
MinimumRange_km 0
OverrideTimer_s 45
TargetsShips true
TargetsShots false
NuclearThermalRocketModule KV Missile Engine, NTR Hydro-Due Copy
UsesCustomName true
ReactorCoreHeight_m 0.026
NuclearReactor
Coolant Hydrogen Deuteride
Moderator Diamond
ModeratorMass_kg 0
Fuel U-233 Dioxide
FuelMass_kg 0.1
FuelEnrichment_Percent 0.36
ControlRodComposition Boron Nitride
ControlRodMass_kg 0.055
NeutronReflector Diamond
ReflectorThickness_m 0
AverageNeutronFlux__m2_s 9.7e+018
ThermalRocket
ChamberComposition Vanadium Chromium Steel
ThroatRadius_m 0.0026
ChamberWallThickness_m 0.0001
ChamberContractionRatio 100
NozzleExpansionRatio 100
NozzleExpansionAngle_degrees 10
RegenerativeCooling_Percent 1
Injector
Composition Lithium
PumpRadius_m 0.036
RotationalSpeed_RPM 89
Gimbal
InnerRadius_m 0.052
ArmorComposition Aluminum
ArmorThickness_m 0.0001
MomentumWheels
Composition Aluminum
RotationalSpeed_RPM 1900
GimbalAngle_degrees 1
RemoteControlModule KV Guidance Computer v1.0
UsesCustomName true
AspectRatio 8
HomingBehavior
PropellantForBoostPhase_Percent 0
BoostPhase
GuidanceLaw Unguided
Accelerate false
DampingEngineMultiplier 0
MidcoursePhase
GuidanceLaw Augmented Proportional Navigation
Accelerate true
DampingEngineMultiplier 1
TerminalPhase
GuidanceLaw Augmented Proportional Navigation
Accelerate false
DampingEngineMultiplier 0.5
IrradianceCutoff_Percent 0
PropellantTankModule KV Fuel Tank, 1.4 kg HydroDeut
UsesCustomName true
Propellant Hydrogen Deuteride
StructureComposition Reinforced Carbon-Carbon
ReactionMass_kg 1.4
HeightToRadiusRatio 20
AdditionalArmorThickness_m 0
ExplosiveModule 112mm NEFP Slug
UsesCustomName true
Length_m 0.08
ExplosiveMass_kg 0.0001
ExplosiveComposition Octogen
ShrapnelMass_kg 0.6
ShrapnelComposition Osmium
Detonator
HardRange_km 0.0049
ActivationRange_km 2
MinimumRange_km 0
OverrideTimer_s 300
TargetsShips true
TargetsShots false
NuclearThermalRocketModule Alt Ordinance Engine, NTR Methane 6.19 km/s 111kN 18.5 kg/s
UsesCustomName true
ReactorCoreHeight_m 0.1
NuclearReactor
Coolant Methane
Moderator Graphite
ModeratorMass_kg 0
Fuel U-235 Dioxide
FuelMass_kg 1
FuelEnrichment_Percent 0.97
ControlRodComposition U-233 Dioxide
ControlRodMass_kg 1
NeutronReflector Graphite
ReflectorThickness_m 0
AverageNeutronFlux__m2_s 3.3e+019
ThermalRocket
ChamberComposition Diamond
ThroatRadius_m 0.015
ChamberWallThickness_m 0.00079
ChamberContractionRatio 2.7
NozzleExpansionRatio 30
NozzleExpansionAngle_degrees 12
RegenerativeCooling_Percent 0.327
Injector
Composition UHMWPE
PumpRadius_m 0.19
RotationalSpeed_RPM 78
Gimbal
InnerRadius_m 0.27
ArmorComposition Reinforced Carbon-Carbon
ArmorThickness_m 0.0001
MomentumWheels
Composition UHMWPE
RotationalSpeed_RPM 9400
GimbalAngle_degrees 7.5
RemoteControlModule Cruise Missile Guidance Computer, Fleet Standard v1.0
UsesCustomName true
AspectRatio 0.5
HomingBehavior
PropellantForBoostPhase_Percent 0.65
BoostPhase
GuidanceLaw Pure Pursuit
Accelerate true
DampingEngineMultiplier 3
MidcoursePhase
GuidanceLaw Augmented Proportional Navigation
Accelerate false
DampingEngineMultiplier 0.25
TerminalPhase
GuidanceLaw Augmented Proportional Navigation
Accelerate true
DampingEngineMultiplier 8.95
IrradianceCutoff_Percent 0
PropellantTankModule Cruise Missile Tank, 450 kg Methane AmorphCarbon
UsesCustomName true
Propellant Methane
StructureComposition Amorphous Carbon
ReactionMass_kg 450
HeightToRadiusRatio 8.2
AdditionalArmorThickness_m 0.001
PropellantTankModule Cruise Missile Drop Tank, 450 kg Methane AmorphCarbon
UsesCustomName true
Propellant Methane
StructureComposition Amorphous Carbon
ReactionMass_kg 450
HeightToRadiusRatio 8.2
AdditionalArmorThickness_m 0.001
External
ExplosiveBoltMass_kg 0.1
ExplosiveBoltComposition Cyclonite
CraftBlueprint KV Mk-VIII
Modules
1 kg B KV Flak Warhead, 100km 1 1.5089 null 0
KV Missile Engine, NTR Hydro-Due Copy 1 0 null 0
KV Guidance Computer v1.0 1 -0.5625 null 0
KV Fuel Tank, 1.4 kg HydroDeut 1 -0.125 null 0
50.0 cm x 0 m Spacer 1 1.7277 null 0
112mm NEFP Slug 1 1.6183 null 0
Armor
ArmorLayers
Aramid Fiber 0.001 0 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
BlastLauncherModule KV Test Launcher, 5.00 km/s
UsesCustomName true
Payload KV Mk-VIII
PayloadRows 1
PayloadColumns 1
ExplosiveMaterial Octogen
ExplosiveMass_kg 130
ArmorMaterial UHMWPE Fiber
ArmorThickness_m 0.001
EngagementRange_km 1010
TargetsShips true
TargetsShots false
LaunchCountCap 10
CraftBlueprint Project Starkiller
Modules
Alt Ordinance Engine, NTR Methane 6.19 km/s 111kN 18.5 kg/s 1 0 null 0
Cruise Missile Guidance Computer, Fleet Standard v1.0 1 -0.75 null 0
Cruise Missile Tank, 450 kg Methane AmorphCarbon 1 0 null 0
KV Test Launcher, 5.00 km/s 1 11.684 null 0
Cruise Missile Drop Tank, 450 kg Methane AmorphCarbon 3 2.89 null 0
Armor
KV MK-VII ExplosiveModule 1 kg B KV Flak Warhead, 100km
UsesCustomName true
Length_m 0.08
ExplosiveMass_kg 0.0001
ExplosiveComposition Octogen
ShrapnelMass_kg 1
ShrapnelComposition Osmium
Detonator
HardRange_km 10
ActivationRange_km 100
MinimumRange_km 0
OverrideTimer_s 45
TargetsShips true
TargetsShots false
NuclearThermalRocketModule KV Missile Engine, NTR Hydro-Due Copy
UsesCustomName true
ReactorCoreHeight_m 0.026
NuclearReactor
Coolant Hydrogen Deuteride
Moderator Diamond
ModeratorMass_kg 0
Fuel U-233 Dioxide
FuelMass_kg 0.1
FuelEnrichment_Percent 0.36
ControlRodComposition Boron Nitride
ControlRodMass_kg 0.055
NeutronReflector Diamond
ReflectorThickness_m 0
AverageNeutronFlux__m2_s 9.7e+018
ThermalRocket
ChamberComposition Vanadium Chromium Steel
ThroatRadius_m 0.0026
ChamberWallThickness_m 0.0001
ChamberContractionRatio 100
NozzleExpansionRatio 100
NozzleExpansionAngle_degrees 10
RegenerativeCooling_Percent 1
Injector
Composition Lithium
PumpRadius_m 0.036
RotationalSpeed_RPM 89
Gimbal
InnerRadius_m 0.052
ArmorComposition Aluminum
ArmorThickness_m 0.0001
MomentumWheels
Composition Aluminum
RotationalSpeed_RPM 1900
GimbalAngle_degrees 1
RemoteControlModule KV Guidance Computer v1.0
UsesCustomName true
AspectRatio 8
HomingBehavior
PropellantForBoostPhase_Percent 0
BoostPhase
GuidanceLaw Unguided
Accelerate false
DampingEngineMultiplier 0
MidcoursePhase
GuidanceLaw Augmented Proportional Navigation
Accelerate true
DampingEngineMultiplier 1
TerminalPhase
GuidanceLaw Augmented Proportional Navigation
Accelerate false
DampingEngineMultiplier 0.5
IrradianceCutoff_Percent 0
PropellantTankModule KV Fuel Tank, 1.4 kg HydroDeut
UsesCustomName true
Propellant Hydrogen Deuteride
StructureComposition Reinforced Carbon-Carbon
ReactionMass_kg 1.4
HeightToRadiusRatio 20
AdditionalArmorThickness_m 0
ExplosiveModule 112mm NEFP Slug
UsesCustomName true
Length_m 0.08
ExplosiveMass_kg 0.0001
ExplosiveComposition Octogen
ShrapnelMass_kg 0.6
ShrapnelComposition Osmium
Detonator
HardRange_km 0.0049
ActivationRange_km 2
MinimumRange_km 0
OverrideTimer_s 300
TargetsShips true
TargetsShots false
CraftBlueprint KV Mk-VIII
Modules
1 kg B KV Flak Warhead, 100km 1 1.5089 null 0
KV Missile Engine, NTR Hydro-Due Copy 1 0 null 0
KV Guidance Computer v1.0 1 -0.5625 null 0
KV Fuel Tank, 1.4 kg HydroDeut 1 -0.125 null 0
50.0 cm x 0 m Spacer 1 1.7277 null 0
112mm NEFP Slug 1 1.6183 null 0
Armor
ArmorLayers
Aramid Fiber 0.001 0 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
Silica Aerogel 0.0005 0.001 0 1 1
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Post by Enderminion on Jul 8, 2017 19:52:14 GMT
you can cut cost and mass using normal launchers, on the siloship
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Post by Durandal on Jul 8, 2017 21:31:26 GMT
you can cut cost and mass using normal launchers, on the siloship I'm not sure I follow. You mean putting the blast launchers on the mother ship? That'd put the ship in the laserstar's killzone. MPD drives would help (and I considered building an MPD drone for the boost stage) but I don't have any small-scale MPDs for a drone.
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Post by Enderminion on Jul 8, 2017 21:43:56 GMT
using normal launchers to launch the boost missiles from the mothership, you made it sound like their were blast launchers on the mothership
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Post by Durandal on Jul 8, 2017 21:49:23 GMT
Oh. No, that's how it is set up. The boost stage is deployed from a mothership from a normal launcher, makes a 14km/s burn towards the target, then deploys the Kill Vehicle from just outside the laser's 1Mm killzone.
Sorry for not being clear, I thought that was implied.
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Post by treptoplax on Jul 8, 2017 23:19:05 GMT
So it took a few days, but I've built a missile system that can reliably mission kill and usually hard kill minimalist laserstars of various configurations.* It is a bit finicky and I'm certain that others could optimize it further, but my objective was to use standardized components from my existing missile fleets to build a missile that can reliably kill a laserstar at 1Mm range. This missile system has been tested around the asteroid Herculina and in the gravity wells of Luna and Venus. Using the majority of the dV from the first stage, the weapon gets around 14 km/s of relative velocity to the target. The blast launcher boosts the payload a further 5km/s (actually a bit higher, the launcher goal was 5km/s and the name was kept the same). In total, an intercept of around 18-20 km/s is attainable for the Kill Vehicles. The Hypervelocity Boost Missile is essentially a stripped down version of my standardized cruise missile with a large blast launcher and drop tanks. The launcher fires a highly modified micromissile with an engagement range set to just outside of 1Mm. A bit cheesy, but it ensures that the missile can engage outside of the standard engagement range of the laser. The boost vehicle is simply an unarmored first stage. To ensure a hit on the enemy it requires a perpendicular velocity of at least<5mm. I've managed to get intercepts with perpendicular velocities within the nanometer range with patience. [snip]
Have you considered a miniaturized gun drone as the final stage (or rather, as an intermediate stage, with the slugs as the final stage KKV)? I have a slightly less refined version of this, but instead of the terminal missiles it launches 5Kg gundrones. Sure, a 1g 1.5Km/s gun is garbage... but once it's already closing at 10Km/s it might as well be a railgun, and it can get laser kills from 500Km out without having to get through the worst part of the death zone. Also, guns aren't fooled by flares. Despite the fact that 80% of them seem to get confused it's just too much fire at all those fragile mirrors, and there's no way a MPD drive can dodge at that point. I've also had good luck with the surprisingly simple strategy of building the skinniest possible railgun drone. I can make a 40cm diameter one with a 7+Km/s railgun for under 10Kc and I'm sure it can be improved. The rate-of-fire is lousy, but it doesn't matter. Because it's so tiny (and they're so big and immobile) it effectively outranges the laserstar! Widebeam lasers would probably counter... My main problem with both of these is that they're almost completely ineffective against anything *but* glass cannon lasers.
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Post by Durandal on Jul 9, 2017 18:44:05 GMT
So it took a few days, but I've built a missile system that can reliably mission kill and usually hard kill minimalist laserstars of various configurations.* It is a bit finicky and I'm certain that others could optimize it further, but my objective was to use standardized components from my existing missile fleets to build a missile that can reliably kill a laserstar at 1Mm range. This missile system has been tested around the asteroid Herculina and in the gravity wells of Luna and Venus. Using the majority of the dV from the first stage, the weapon gets around 14 km/s of relative velocity to the target. The blast launcher boosts the payload a further 5km/s (actually a bit higher, the launcher goal was 5km/s and the name was kept the same). In total, an intercept of around 18-20 km/s is attainable for the Kill Vehicles. The Hypervelocity Boost Missile is essentially a stripped down version of my standardized cruise missile with a large blast launcher and drop tanks. The launcher fires a highly modified micromissile with an engagement range set to just outside of 1Mm. A bit cheesy, but it ensures that the missile can engage outside of the standard engagement range of the laser. The boost vehicle is simply an unarmored first stage. To ensure a hit on the enemy it requires a perpendicular velocity of at least<5mm. I've managed to get intercepts with perpendicular velocities within the nanometer range with patience. [snip]
Have you considered a miniaturized gun drone as the final stage (or rather, as an intermediate stage, with the slugs as the final stage KKV)? I have a slightly less refined version of this, but instead of the terminal missiles it launches 5Kg gundrones. Sure, a 1g 1.5Km/s gun is garbage... but once it's already closing at 10Km/s it might as well be a railgun, and it can get laser kills from 500Km out without having to get through the worst part of the death zone. Also, guns aren't fooled by flares. Despite the fact that 80% of them seem to get confused it's just too much fire at all those fragile mirrors, and there's no way a MPD drive can dodge at that point. I've also had good luck with the surprisingly simple strategy of building the skinniest possible railgun drone. I can make a 40cm diameter one with a 7+Km/s railgun for under 10Kc and I'm sure it can be improved. The rate-of-fire is lousy, but it doesn't matter. Because it's so tiny (and they're so big and immobile) it effectively outranges the laserstar! Widebeam lasers would probably counter... My main problem with both of these is that they're almost completely ineffective against anything *but* glass cannon lasers. I have a small gundrone from an old project that I've thought about using to replace the KV but I haven't had a chance to test it yet. I'm afraid that a conventional gun, even if mounted internally, would be vulnerable to laser cookoff. I haven't considered EM weapons mainly due to the added mass requirements of a reactor and radiators, which I again think would be more vulnerable to laser fire. What I'd really like is to mount the blast launcher on a turret, but if that behaved anything like our other turreted weapons I believe the turret would be pretty heavy and power hungry. I consider this missile to be more of a technology demonstrator than a finished weapon. I'm thinking I may switch the propelant over to decane or a similarly dense fuel, and I may use one of the micromissiles from the challenge thread as the base for a new KV. Some of the ealier KV tests I did* used radially spaced engines instead of a single rear engine. I had hoped that this would allow them to make minor course corrections while staying nose-on with the target but the dang things like to tumble. I also originally wanted the KV to simbly be an inert payload, but the KV has to maneuver a little bit otherwise they pass by the laserstar even on a "perfect" intercept. I can't wait until qswitched gives us Kasaba-Howitzers. That'd solve this whole laserstar problem. *You may notice the one I posted is the Mk-VII
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Post by bigbombr on Jul 9, 2017 21:45:48 GMT
... I can't wait until qswitched gives us Kasaba-Howitzers. That'd solve this whole laserstar problem. *You may notice the one I posted is the Mk-VII Mirror drones.
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Post by RiftandRend on Jul 10, 2017 7:25:12 GMT
You can reduce the issue of laser cookoff by separating the ammo module from the cannon.
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Post by apophys on Jul 22, 2017 4:27:31 GMT
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Post by treptoplax on Jul 22, 2017 18:19:56 GMT
I think small size is critical and underrated for anti-laser weapons and in general. My minidrones (posted with their carrier in the tournament thread) look a lot like those missiles that with the addition of a 16mm gun on the front (quite similar cost and mass); that reduces their durability somewhat, but they can get within gunrange easily (at least against immobile targets) - just 25 took out one of those laserstars (AI on AI) in my testing if you don't mind INFINITE LAG while it takes an hour to run the 4-minute battle. With manual operation I think they'd be really effective (although the laserstar has a lot more delta-V, so it starts getting really complicated... wish I could reduce the rate of fire further). I'm looking at smallest-possible-raildrones now; the key IMAO is to resist the siren call of velocity and keep them as small as feasible. I can get 8Km/s out of a 25cm diameter drone (plus drop tanks, but those are only for intercept anyway) costing under 10Kc... that's plenty to damage unarmored non-dodging targets from 900 Km out, and at that distance they're almost laser-proof. If you crank power down far enough you can reduce the fire rate to get lag under control, too (although then they're not very useful against anything but glass cannons). I'll post some once I get the design refined a little further.
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Post by jtyotjotjipaefvj on Aug 1, 2017 21:23:00 GMT
This thread seems more appropriate for continuing my anti-laser ship posting so I'll use this from now on. Apophys previously said that my win against his laser star was moot since my ship died before any bullets hit home, rendering my clear victory invalid. I was also a little unhappy with the near-draw result, so I created a ship that can take down the laser star without any losses. My first idea was to use a drone, leaving the launching ship intact and therefore I could claim to have won the fight in a very obvious manner. However, after some tweaking, I was able to create a drone that can destroy the laser boat without dying itself. The secret lies in its two meter thick diamond armor plate that covers only the nose of the ship. It provides a thick enough obstacle for the laser that the drone can empty its ammo bin without losing too many cannons, and can survive until the laser ship is torn into bits by the cannon fire. The full package costs a whopping 10 kc less than apophys's design, meaning that it would've been the better choice even if both the ship and launcher died in combat. However, since both the drone and the launcher survived, there should be no question of which design is the superior one, hopefully finally proving that lasers are not the only good weapon in the game, as some people seem to think. Below are links to both designs. dronelaunch platformHere is a youtube video showing all the exitement of waiting for two minutes for bullets to hit a practically stationary target.
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Post by Durandal on Aug 1, 2017 21:49:09 GMT
This thread seems more appropriate for continuing my anti-laser ship posting so I'll use this from now on. Apophys previously said that my win against his laser star was moot since my ship died before any bullets hit home, rendering my clear victory invalid. I was also a little unhappy with the near-draw result, so I created a ship that can take down the laser star without any losses. My first idea was to use a drone, leaving the launching ship intact and therefore I could claim to have won the fight in a very obvious manner. However, after some tweaking, I was able to create a drone that can destroy the laser boat without dying itself. The secret lies in its two meter thick diamond armor plate that covers only the nose of the ship. It provides a thick enough obstacle for the laser that the drone can empty its ammo bin without losing too many cannons, and can survive until the laser ship is torn into bits by the cannon fire. The full package costs a whopping 10 kc less than apophys's design, meaning that it would've been the better choice even if both the ship and launcher died in combat. However, since both the drone and the launcher survived, there should be no question of which design is the superior one, hopefully finally proving that lasers are not the only good weapon in the game, as some people seem to think. Below are links to both designs. dronelaunch platformHere is a youtube video showing all the exitement of waiting for two minutes for bullets to hit a practically stationary target. So you're shooting... through...the 2m cap of diamond armor... Something about that doesn't seem feasable but I can't quite place my finger on it...
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Post by jtyotjotjipaefvj on Aug 1, 2017 22:01:50 GMT
So you're shooting... through...the 2m cap of diamond armor... Something about that doesn't seem feasable but I can't quite place my finger on it... You could easily install tiny holes in the plate for bullets to pass through, I'm sure it's totally fine.
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